(2019-06-12, 08:40 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Wrong forum...
That's a good one, Max. The sceptics on here are just not sceptical enough ?
The Lloyd Rudy case : Malf and Paul from Psiquest > The (stupid) surgeons basically fed the information to the (stupid) patient.
The Skeptics society forum :
Post by
Cygnus_X1 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:50 pm
It's quite right to be sceptical, but equally one ought to
also be sceptical of scepticism that is just throwing out any 'It might be....' that one can think up in an attempt to appear sceptical. There does come a point where the scepticism is clutching at straws even more than the original story and one is at the level of 'swamp gas' ( which even Hynek later admitted was stretching explanations....
https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22188
Sorry to be the boring voice but... Actually it's fine if a skeptic wants to argue against a specific case in this forum - just not NDEs in general. I recognize it may take self-restraint if one is interested in that challenge.
(2019-06-13, 04:33 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]I’m saying post in the right forum if you’re interested in trying to obtain a response... If you’re not, then don’t. Simples.
Do you mean post in the right "section" of this forum ? Or do you mean post in another forum ie not Psiquest ?
(2019-06-13, 04:29 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Nah, that makes no sense to me... mixed messages
You're free to dislike it. However for other readers' sake, the guidelines state:
Quote:To be a bit more specific: in general, if a skeptic wants to engage a discussion at a “proponent vs. skeptic level”, then it would be better to do so in the Skeptic vs. Proponent Discussions sub-forum. Again, that does not mean "skeptics" cannot post on the ECP forum, for example to discuss a specific case or article, but not if the discussion's objective - let's say it's about NDEs - is to argue from there that extended consciousness is not involved in NDEs in the first place. That kind of post would best be suited to the Skeptic vs. Proponent Discussions sub-forum.
(2019-06-13, 03:03 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]The former
Okay, thanks. I think I can guess what their response would be. It's an anecdote and anecdotes don't mean anything, no matter how many you have.
(2019-06-13, 03:18 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, thanks. I think I can guess what their response would be. It's an anecdote and anecdotes don't mean anything, no matter how many you have.
they'all also tell you that the eyes could have been taped off because the patient was basically declared dead, and that he regained consciousness hearing about the notes or directly seeing them. Another thing they usually say is that even with a flat EEG there is still activity in the brain that could allow some sensory experience.
Honestly I don't find this responses to be better than the proponent ones, after all even skeptics often cling to "maybe..." and "it could be..." or some stuff like having consciousness with a flat EEG that isn't normally viable.
(2019-06-15, 04:19 PM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]Excellent, you found the paper with the lipstick in the nurses pocket.
Yes, I think
it is this one, Jean Morzelle (now recently deceased). Here he is with the old friend who accidentally shot him (in the liver) with a dummy bullet during army training (National service) in 1949. He was presumed as good as dead but was saved because the surgeon had just taken delivery of a special type of scalpel (from the USA) that cauterised (stops bleeding) as it was cutting into the organ.
"…..during his operation, something strange happens. Jean feels like he is leaving his body. He sees himself (his body) while floating in the room and observes the surgeon operating! He even says he went (or saw?) under the table where he observed a plaque which said "Manufacture d'armes et des cycles de Saint-Étienne". He travelled through the walls, saw the nearby bicycle garage ….
Then he enters an intense, wonderful light where sensations, feelings, knowledge are multiplied...."
https://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2009/11...-mort.html
(2019-06-16, 10:25 AM)Enrique Vargas Wrote: [ -> ]Just came across this one, dunno whether you've seen it or not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_mSPxColVI
...and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruXn8FHG...Y9erWgXjlc
Yes, I've seen it Enrique, but thanks for posting it !
There's a couple of videos here you might like but of course you may well have seen them (in fact you most probably will have) so apologies if that is the case.
A Spanish guy recounting his NDE which occurred to him when he was involved in a collision of some kind. He seems to be a very down to earth type of guy who you can tell is absolutely sincere and has experienced something extraordinary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thr_ygfwxn0
And this one, Rafael Marco, previously very healthy but experienced a catastrophic aortic dissection (yet another one). He recounts amongst many other things (an initial OBE in his apartment ?) wandering around the operating room during his 12 hour operation (which they assumed would more than likely fail) and seeing one of the cardiologists singing a little song about an orange and a lemon as he walked out of the room (or something like that?)
Marco would have been cooled to a temperature of 18 degrees C for this operation (apparently) so he would have had no brainwaves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NuiamkilrQ
(2019-06-16, 03:11 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I've seen it Enrique, but thanks for posting it !
There's a couple of videos here you might like but of course you may well have seen them (in fact you most probably will have) so apologies if that is the case.
A Spanish guy recounting his NDE which occurred to him when he was involved in a collision of some kind. He seems to be a very down to earth type of guy who you can tell is absolutely sincere and has experienced something extraordinary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thr_ygfwxn0
And this one, Rafael Marco, previously very healthy but experienced a catastrophic aortic dissection (yet another one). He recounts amongst many other things (an initial OBE in his apartment ?) wandering around the operating room during his 12 hour operation (which they assumed would more than likely fail) and seeing one of the cardiologists singing a little song about an orange and a lemon as he walked out of the room (or something like that?)
Marco would have been cooled to a temperature of 18 degrees C for this operation (apparently) so he would have had no brainwaves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NuiamkilrQ
Thanks, Tim, great stuff. The first guy is Mexican, not Spanish, and from humble social background. He's telling his story with great emotion, the experience has huge impact on him. The second guy is Spanish. A classic NDE, with OBE, with encounters with loved ones.... In his OBE, while operated on, his spirit wonders outside of the OR, ad sees one of the surgeons with an apple in one hand and an orange in the other, whistling a melody. He also mentions other phenomena that took place later one, with a hellish part, but he doesn't geo into it. He says that when he was recovering, he told the whistling surgeon he had seen him walking and whistling outside of the OR with an apple and an orange. They guy turned pale and went away in a hurry. I would like to hear about his hellish part of the NDE, it's a shame he doesn't get into it here