(2019-05-20, 05:55 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]I've posted this Italian documentary before but the producer has subsequently (very kindly) provided English subtitles. The translation is not perfect (nor should we expect it to be). There are instances where he should be she for example but it's perfectly good enough to get the drift.
All in all, a good documentary with some very pleasant scenery. I personally found the information provided by Anna Siboni, very compelling and David Vaccarin's subsequent "conversion" but others, of course may disagree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0flr8aZo7A
Really interesting Tim. Thanks.
(2019-05-23, 02:36 PM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]This is an interesting read and combination of anesthesia awareness+NDE, I could compare it to Pam's NDE:
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38733131
The woman had a traumatic AW experience, and that is very common when AW happens. In Pam's case, there was no sign of distress or pain.
The woman couldn't see anything, only hear. There is no mention of any veridical sight going on, as she couldn't even open her eyes. Pam instead had vivid memories with sight in them, although she too had her eyes closed and taped.
When nearing death due to suffocation, the woman had an NDE with classic elements. Feeling of peace, relaxation, being in company of God and so on. Curious that it only happened while she was dying, and not before during the rest of AW.
The woman then fully recovered. What do we make of it? It seems that the NDE is a separate event from AW, taking place at the exact moment in which she risked death and was suffocating. It doesn't seem an effect of the drugs given to her.
AW also looks much different than what Pam felt and experienced.
Yes, I think I posted this a while back, Raf and the points you make are spot on !
For anyone interested, this audio of Donna Penner's experience of anaesthesia awareness during abdominal surgery (below) is an essential listen (not for the faint hearted though). This clearly shows the difference between anaesthesia awareness and a near death experience, because she had both.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p04q158k
(2019-05-23, 09:54 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]New vid, haven’t watched it yet, but hear it’s good.
It seems to be a compilation of extracts from videos I've previously watched, together with some plinky-plonk music. Not sure I can watch this.
... even the comments, one comment says something like "I've finally decided to post this" - the same comment is spammed across almost every NDE video on youtube. The insincerity wears a bit thin after the first half-dozen times.
Maybe I should start today all over again, see whether I have more patience next time
Yeah, no offence to Stan (he hasn't seen it) but I felt the same way about it. I saw it a while ago on line and after 20 seconds I realised it was bordering on emotional/sensationalism and I can't stomach that. I don't care for Anita Moorjani's inspirational talks about the amazing nature and power of her/our being and I don't care for crowds of youngsters in ecstasy monkeying about...dawn of a new era type thing. Then again I am a fairly 'conservative' old fart.
(2019-05-24, 08:49 AM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]It seems to be a compilation of extracts from videos I've previously watched, together with some plinky-plonk music. Not sure I can watch this.
... even the comments, one comment says something like "I've finally decided to post this" - the same comment is spammed across almost every NDE video on youtube. The insincerity wears a bit thin after the first half-dozen times.
Maybe I should start today all over again, see whether I have more patience next time
Yeah, I thought I might have made a faux-pas when they put up a tag saying Dr Bruce Greyson when it was in fact Jeff Olsen.
Some may still find it interesting. Apologies for unwittingly raising hopes.
(2019-05-24, 09:09 AM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, no offence to Stan (he hasn't seen it) but I felt the same way about it. I saw it a while ago on line and after 20 seconds I realised it was bordering on emotional/sensationalism and I can't stomach that. I don't care for Anita Moorjani's inspirational talks about the amazing nature and power of her/our being and I don't care for crowds of youngsters in ecstasy monkeying about...dawn of a new era type thing. Then again I am a fairly 'conservative' old fart.
Me too Tim.
I find that I’m quite turned off these ‘NDE evangelists’, as I see them now. I wonder why that should be? Possibly some type of drug addiction type of effect seeing the same sort of boring thing over and over while waiting for a real breakthrough. Will such a thing come in my lifetime? If I bank on the answer being negative I won’t be so disappointed!
(2019-05-24, 09:22 AM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]Me too Tim.
I find that I’m quite turned off these ‘NDE evangelists’, as I see them now. I wonder why that should be? Possibly some type of drug addiction type of effect seeing the same sort of boring thing over and over while waiting for a real breakthrough. Will such a thing come in my lifetime? If I bank on the answer being negative I won’t be so disappointed!
Thanks Stan, me too. Jeez, thinking about it, I hope I don't come across as some kind of evangelist; for me it's just a fascinating subject that science can investigate that I hope is interesting for others.
Will a 'breakthrough' ever come ? It depends on what you mean by a breakthrough. Do you mean, will mainstream science ever be persuaded that consciousness is not a product of the brain and alter the science books ?
I don't think it will happen with any official announcement (bells and whistles). I just think the data will quietly grow to an extent that can't be ignored. Some new books will then appear on the shelves of universities that previously wouldn't have been allowed, other books will quietly disappear. New young medics/academics who have been made aware/persuaded by the evidence will enter the systems (are entering the systems already) and eventually the 'ayatollahs' of materialist science will be displaced.
Where that will leave us is anyone's guess. We certainly can't go back to pre-enlightenment times. I hope that the scientific investigation of NDE's and the conglomeration of data it's producing will finally shed light on what we're doing here and what our purpose is.
(2019-05-24, 09:14 AM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I thought I might have made a faux-pas when they put up a tag saying Dr Bruce Greyson when it was in fact Jeff Olsen.
Some may still find it interesting. Apologies for unwittingly raising hopes.
Well, I think I overreacted a bit. To be fair, I appreciated some of those NDE accounts previously. I think I just like to hear things direct from the actual experiencer (which some of the clips are) without being repackaged by someone else. I react like this to any third-party intervention - there's one well-known youtube site which adds borders, a logo and music at beginning and end of NDE accounts. It always makes me try to find the original unadulterated content.
So that's not really me saying anything of importance perhaps, I'm mostly just being a bit irritable. But- maybe there is a serious point here - we all know how things can get turned into some sort of religious ideology, and maybe these little complaints I make are due to such concerns. I want to hear things straight, the same way I'd want to hear any science or news.
But I do apologise if I'm putting anyone off, I'll shut up now.
(2019-05-24, 10:22 AM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks Stan, me too. Jeez, thinking about it, I hope I don't come across as some kind of evangelist; for me it's just a fascinating subject that science can investigate that I hope is interesting for others.
I realised too late that what I wrote might have been open to offending you. I definitely think you are a type of NDE evangelist, but then I consider myself one too. What I guess I meant was that I’ve become bored by seeing videos by people like Moorjani and many others saying the same old stuff over and over. I realise that they’ve a vital part to play in getting the NDE message across to people.
You have always presented new and unusual NDEs Tim, rest assured that I don’t find your take on them to be at all boring.
(2019-05-24, 12:35 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: [ -> ]I realised too late that what I wrote might have been open to offending you. I definitely think you are a type of NDE evangelist, but then I consider myself one too. What I guess I meant was that I’ve become bored by seeing videos by people like Moorjani and many others saying the same old stuff over and over. I realise that they’ve a vital part to play in getting the NDE message across to people.
You have always presented new and unusual NDEs Tim, rest assured that I don’t find your take on them to be at all boring.
Stan wrote > I realised too late that what I wrote might have been open to offending you.
No, I don't take offence that easily
Stan said > I definitely think you are a type of NDE evangelist
Well, I'm doing it wrong then
What I'm trying to do is get the facts out, that's all.
Stan said > I’ve become bored by seeing videos by people like Moorjani and many others saying the same old stuff over and over
The cult of being "empowered" by an NDE. And it often leads to the creation of psychobabble and all sorts of naïve, albeit well meaning people jumping on board. All I want to see is the scientific acceptance that the brain doesn't produce consciousness, personally and people can draw their own conclusions.
Stan said > You have always presented new and unusual NDEs Tim, rest assured that I don’t find your take on them to be at all boring.
Thanks, Stan. I just wanted to get the forum going after the Skeptiko fall out, that's all.