Psience Quest

(2019-05-14, 12:43 AM)letseat Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see why its so absurd to speculate that deep brain structures may still be active enough to construct some experiences, some of the time

The problem with that is, it means radically changing the current scientific understanding of how the brain works. I'm a layperson (not an expert) but this information is available to us all and apparently, in order to create lucid well structured thought processes with reasoning and memory formation, the brain needs to work in totality (the whole brain together, particularly the cortex).

After cardiac arrest, blood flow ceases in one second and 10-20 seconds later, there is no measurable electric activity. The brain stem also ceases to function as can be demonstrated by loss of the gag and eye reflexes. So when does the NDE occur ?

When a person has a cardiac arrest, they flop/drop down dead. They don't have time to start constructing elaborate scenarios (of out of body experiences and dead relatives). The experience therefore can't occur just before the arrest, so does it occur after the heart has been re-started ?

The problem with this is that patients can recall sequences of events that occurred during the period when their heart was stopped... and when they come to after a few minutes (occasionally) or more often hours later (apparently), they are confused with loss of memory about what occurred...but with the exception of a very clear memory of their NDE (in 10-20% of patients ) 

So when does the experience occur ? And this puzzle has lead to desperation amongst sceptics because they know the games up. But in order to continue to hold onto their world view, they're now open to basically anything at all as demonstrated by the recent excitement amongst their ranks, when brain researchers demonstrated that brain cells can still be viable after an hour or two hours of no blood flow.

Nothing to do with consciousness; the patients were brain dead (with devastating head injuries) and the researchers had being given consent to put probes deep into their brain to test the viability of cells (timewise) after life support was withdrawn.

That's it...but lo and behold, this was then hailed as the latest possible explanation for NDE's. And so it goes because
for science in general, it's institutions and the materialists that control it, the notion that we have a soul (a separable mind) is simply abhorrent.

(2019-05-14, 12:37 PM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]Some of that I agree with Tim, but not all. For one thing, there's the tag 'believers' which has been discussed many times here and at Skeptiko. I take it as somewhat as a derogatory term myself, though I don't insist that others agree with me, I do have some quirky opinions, and I acknowledge that.

Then there's the whole "it's up to someone else to prove it" when science itself is not based upon proof (that belongs in the realm of mathematics), but of falsifiability. I'd also ask, does no-one have any curiosity of their own? If something turns up which is considered to be "inconclusive", then why not investigate the phenomenon, conduct research, rather than waiting to shoot down everyone else's findings? If the whole thing is so deeply uninteresting, why even comment at all? I don't know, I find there is something which is being left unsaid, the 'reading between the lines' meaning, which I think tells a somewhat different story of what is really happening in these types of discussions.

Again, I agree, Typoz.

(2019-05-20, 05:55 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]I've posted this Italian documentary before but the producer has subsequently (very kindly) provided English subtitles. The translation is not perfect (nor should we expect it to be). There are instances where he should be she for example but it's perfectly good enough to get the drift. 

All in all, a good documentary with some very pleasant scenery. I personally found the information provided by Anna Siboni, very compelling and David Vaccarin's subsequent "conversion" but others, of course may disagree.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0flr8aZo7A

Very interesting as an italian I can understand it perfectly. DR Davide Vaccarin published a book in which he writes some experiences and, maybe most importantly, compares them with hallucinations happening under the effect of different drugs. He points out similarities, but also notes that many elements are different for sure, so he comes to the conclusion that NDEs aren't caused just by chemicals.
I also like the docomuntary as there is nothing "pacchiano" as we say in italy, nothing graphically exagerated.

(2019-05-20, 07:15 PM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]Very interesting as an italian I can understand it perfectly. DR Davide Vaccarin published a book in which he writes some experiences and, maybe most importantly, compares them with hallucinations happening under the effect of different drugs. He points out similarities, but also notes that many elements are different for sure, so he comes to the conclusion that NDEs aren't caused just by chemicals.
I also like the docomuntary as there is nothing "pacchiano" as we say in italy, nothing graphically exagerated.

Hi, Raf

I've got a David Vaccarin interview (amongst others) translated into English (somewhere) but I can't post it (Forum rules). I think it's heartening to see that these experiences are just the same (more or less) everywhere. It should make us realise that language, although a barrier, is of no importance. Anna Siboni is no different from Penny Sartori ….David Vaccarin from Jeff Long...etc (obviously)

Your English is excellent BTW !

(2019-05-20, 07:27 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Hi, Raf

I've got a David Vaccarin interview (amongst others) translated into English (somewhere) but I can't post it (Forum rules). I think it's heartening to see that these experiences are just the same (more or less) everywhere. It should make us realise that language, although a barrier, is of no importance. Anna Siboni is no different from Penny Sartori ….David Vaccarin from Jeff Long...etc (obviously)

Your English is excellent BTW !

Thank you Tim! I'm graduating in foreign languages, but to be honest I just had a natural gift for the English language I never had to study much for it... I wish that had been the same for other subjects of study

Indeed, although rarer some NDE research is going on also in Italy. I would have liked Anna Siboni to conduct some work like Penny, but she mostly just kept a diary of what happened in the hospital. Still very interesting.

If you ever need something translated from or into Italian just let me know

(2019-05-21, 05:56 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]this becomes incredibly hard to explain where recalled information apparently comes from locations that are out of both visual and auditory range of these patients.

That said, I don’t think for one second that something is leaving the body, that too is just another conventional attempt to explain these recalled experiences.

It isn't a 'conventional' attempt, though. And much more to the point, something leaving the body is exactly what the people who report these experiences say occurred. They had the NDE, they provided the data, and they say that that is what happened.
You can't just conveniently ignore this uncomfortable fact, just because you desperately want your theory to catch on, surely ?

(2019-05-21, 10:16 AM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you Tim! I'm graduating in foreign languages, but to be honest I just had a natural gift for the English language I never had to study much for it... I wish that had been the same for other subjects of study

Indeed, although rarer some NDE research is going on also in Italy. I would have liked Anna Siboni to conduct some work like Penny, but she mostly just kept a diary of what happened in the hospital. Still very interesting.

If you ever need something translated from or into Italian just let me know

Thanks, Raf that's very kind of you !

Dr Enrico Facco is doing some work in this area, I believe. I've got a great interview I found from him on NDE's but I haven't got permission to post it yet.

(2019-05-21, 03:41 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks, Raf that's very kind of you !

Dr Enrico Facco is doing some work in this area, I believe. I've got a great interview I found from him on NDE's but I haven't got permission to post it yet.

I've heard about him, Facco and Argillo are both working on it if I recall correctly. If they ever need something translated let me know, but I've already seen some papers in English from them so, I suppose they already have someone doing the translation for them

(2019-05-21, 06:53 PM)Raf999 Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard about him, Facco and Argillo are both working on it if I recall correctly. If they ever need something translated let me know, but I've already seen some papers in English from them so, I suppose they already have someone doing the translation for them

Just to be clear, I don't know Enrico Facco, Raf. I found the interview on the net. You could contact him yourself though, you never know, he might be looking for someone to do that for him.

(2019-05-23, 06:00 AM)Max_B Wrote: [ -> ]that they are describing their sense of 'self' to have relocated,

You're a crafty operator, Max ! They describe everything that comprised themselves personality wise, in other words nothing less than everything they were/are (without their body) and they can see things not only around their bodies but down the hall where there are no "mobile phone masts"=your equivalent of people with transmitting brains.