Super-Psi & some notes from Braude's Immortal Remains

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(2023-06-02, 04:33 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Next chapter is Victorian Edwardian mediumship...though I can already say there isn't much new there I'll highlight a few bits of potential interest...

The chapter goes through a lot of what we've already covered. Mediumship seems to be both blessing and bane to Survival, providing us with some very interesting cases of what I would consider to be Survival evidence but also a morass of odd claims and weird control spirits.

Shushan also notes cases where an unjust class structure continues in the afterlife, and some very questionable claims of supposed spirits of slaves saying how they enjoy continuing to be slaves after death.

Regarding Super Psi:

Quote:...The super-psi hypothesis would thus demand that we accept that the medium is able to telepathically determine and locate the appropriate living individuals, retrieve from their minds the data relevant to the anonymous sitter, and coherently present the results, often in language displaying the personal characteristics of the alleged spirit who was unknown to the medium in life. According to psychologist Alan Gauld (1982: 46, 56), the evidence from Gladys Osborne Leonard’s mediumship (see below) would require that she had “extrasensory access to any identifying detail whatsoever relating to any living or recently dead person in the whole of the Western world” – a scenario which he finds “grotesquely implausible.”

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (pp. 138-139). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Regarding Leonora Piper's NDE:

Quote:Leonora Piper appears to be the only Victorian medium to have recorded her own near-death experience. It is provided in full as an appendix at the end of this book.

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (p. 143). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Will try to see if this NDE is a matter of public record, if not will summarize it later.

Regarding relation to NDEs:

Quote:The social history of Victorian and Edwardian spiritualism provides a backdrop to the mediumistic afterlife descriptions. At the same time, despite all their dubious and idiosyncratic claims, the descriptions feature some of the most common elements of NDEs, many decades before Moody. These factors raise two important questions: If, as argued by some psychical researchers, these mediums were relating genuine spirit communications, what are we to make of such obviously culturally situated perceptions of the afterlife? And how can we explain the general but undeniable similarities between the mediumship accounts and contemporary and historical reports of NDEs cross-culturally?

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (p. 172). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Quote:It is especially significant that they correspond to some of the most common elements found continually in other afterlife-related experiential phenomena, namely the NDE and (as will be seen in the next chapter) reincarnation memories of states between lives. Indeed, while widely considered to be “untestable,” the descriptions in these scripts are, in fact, testable by comparison with these other experiential phenomena.

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (pp. 180-181). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

So the next chapter, as noted, is between life memories.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(2023-06-02, 07:17 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: So the next chapter, as noted, is between life memories.

There are two categories of between life memories Shushan highlights - those that come with CORT cases and those that are due to past life regression (PLR). While noting the issues with PLR he notes there are enough parallels to other afterlife descriptions that he wanted to include them.

I won't really touch on the PLR stuff because I am deeply skeptical of past life regressions via hypnosis and AFAIK there are no good evidential cases.

[Looking at PLR more deeply there are evidential cases...]

Shushan breaks the cases down by country, starting with Burma (I'm not putting all the cases, just enough to get the general idea)->

Quote:Spontaneous cases with intermission memories appear to be more common in Burma than elsewhere...

Quote:The boys described their intermission memories to Fielding: “After they died they said they lived for some time without a body at all, wandering in the air and hiding in the trees. This was for their sins. Then, after some months, they were born again as twin boys. ‘It used,’ said the elder boy, ‘to be so clear, I could remember everything; but it is getting duller and duller, and I cannot now remember as I used to do.’”

Quote:Most of this three months he spent dwelling in the hollow shell of a palm-fruit.

Quote:They found that the children often remembered being out of their previous body and seeing the preparations for their funeral. Some recalled attempting to communicate with living relatives but finding that they were unable to do so. The souls were then “directed by an elder or an old man dressed in white” to some earthly place, such as a tree or a pagoda, though some remained near the body or walked along a path. The children also frequently reported encountering the souls of other deceased people, and over half recalled “choosing parents for the next life.” Some followed their new parents home, while others were directed to them by the elder figure. Some recalled entering their new mother, usually being ingested into her body after “transforming into a grain of rice or speck of dust in the water.” Sometimes the water would be discarded before being drunk, or guardian spirits would prevent the new soul from entering, and the soul would have to try again.

Then Thailand ->

Quote:
Quote:Buddhists in Thailand claim to have experienced intermediate states comparatively frequently, though usually remember nothing about them. Those who do most often recall an OBE in which they witnessed their own funeral, and seeing a “man in white” – a sage who welcomes and guides souls, and helps them to decide upon their next birth. The deceased are often given food, usually fruit, which causes them to forget their previous life. Those who claim to remember the experiences say they did not eat the fruit (Stevenson 1983: 6-7). A Thai man named Bongkuch Promsin, born in 1962, remembered that prior to his reincarnation, his soul lived for seven years in a tree before following his new father home on a bus.

Then India ->

Quote:“Just before death I felt a profound darkness and after death I saw a dazzling light. Then and there I knew I had come out of my body in a vaporous form and that I was moving upwards.” She was met by four teenage males dressed in bright saffron robes. They had a rectangular vessel about ten inches in diameter into which they placed Shanti Devi’s soul and took her to the third plane. They told her that “those who aspired for a higher life sincerely, but who had committed fleshly wrong in this life, were dipped in the river before moving any higher.” They then proceeded to the forth plane where “all is open space” and “full of light … very mild, and smoothing and enlivening light.” There she saw “still more saints, brighter in appearance than those on the third plane.” With them was the deity Krishna, who “was showing each person a record of his activities on earth, good and bad, and accordingly what would be his condition in the future.” Though Shanti Devi did not recall much of his words, she did hear him read out “House Number 565,” which was her address in her new identity. The four saffron-robed saints then took Shanti Devi “to a place like a staircase where it was very bright.” After sitting there for a long period, she “was taken to a dark room, from all sides of which a very bad smell was coming out. I was made to lie down in a clean place there. … I did not feel any pain. I simply passed into a state of unconsciousness, and at that very moment I saw very brilliant light” (Rawat & Rivas 2005).

Then Sri Lanka ->

Quote:Disna recalled leaving her previous body and flying to a realm reserved for the morally good. There she met a kingly figure in reddish-colored clothes which never became dirty. He wore pointed shoes and lived in a glass palace with “beautiful reed beds.” Disna wore similar clothes, but of gold, and spent her time playing and materializing food which did not need to be consumed to satisfy her hunger. The king figure then decided that she should be reborn.

China ->

Quote:In an account from 8th century China, a man recalled that when his previous self died, his “soul hovered about in an uncertain state without leaving the house.” He observed his father, Huang Ku, reciting a verse of mourning he had written for his son. Moved by this, the boy decided, “I will again become a son in the Ku family.” He then felt himself “seized and sent before an Official of the Underworld,” who decreed that his rebirth would indeed be with his previous family.

Japan ->

Quote:More recently, a number of unusual Japanese cases have been identified in which children recall only the intermission prior to the present incarnation, without having memories of a previous life at all. One boy, aged six, remembered “flying in the sky, looking for my mother. Looking down. I could see my mother and chose her.” A nine-year-old girl recalled being in another realm before her current life, with souls of many other children and “a god, an entity with authority.” She described the entity as generous, and said “He was looking after us, like a counselor” (Ohkado & Ikegawa 2014: 477). A total of 21 such cases were researched, and it was found that most described the other world as “cloud or sky,” though others said it was a realm of light, “a wide space where you can see the Earth,” “like a star,” “where there are a number of levels,” “up there,” and “in the shape of a long ellipse.” It was a peaceful, joyful realm though “difficult to describe.” Most met a god or god-like figure who helped them decide on their future parents. Many saw their future siblings, and one described other souls as “light balls.” Seeing activities on Earth concerning one’s future family was common, and over half remembered the reason for their rebirth, which varied from helping people on Earth to having a better life than their previous one.

Turkey ->

Quote:A Turkish Druze boy named Nasir Toksöz began speaking of a former life at the age of two-and-a-half. The boy claimed that prior to his rebirth, he first “went to God and gave an account of his conduct to Him.” Stevenson (1980: 9-10, 324, 335) observed that the experience was comparable to the NDE life review. Despite its brevity, the account is important because it conflicts with local beliefs. The Druze believe that the soul transmigrates directly from one body to the next, meaning that any sort of state between lives is impossible, even including OBEs.

Native N. America ->

Quote:Numerous Native American cultures held beliefs in reincarnation. Accounts of cases with intermission memories form part of a wider, complex afterlife experience-and-belief system incorporating NDEs, afterlife myths with NDE themes, and shamanic journeys to realms of the dead. It is significant that all of the Native American accounts of intermission memories are found in NDE contexts, and most involved shamans. While there are no examples of research cases like those described above, a number of societies had systems to empirically validate reincarnation claims, including investigating evidential dreams, past-life memories, birthmarks, and personality traits consistent with the earlier personality. These include the Gitksan, Wet’suwet’en, Beaver (Mills 1988: 408), Tillamook (Boas 1923: 12), and Tlingit (De Laguna 1972: 776ff).

United States ->

Quote:A fuller account was given by a boy named Sam Taylor, who remembered being his own grandfather. Sam made several accurate statements about his previous life that he could not have known in his current one, and was able to identify “himself” (his grandfather) from old photos. He described how “his body shot up to heaven when he died.” He met an uncle there, and also met God, who gave him a card that had green arrows on it, which would allow him to be reincarnated (ibid. 232-35, 238).

Shushan makes some notes about Intermission Memories and the relation to overall Survival research ->

Quote:Comparing intermission memories in spontaneous cases around the world, Sharma and Tucker (2004: 108) concluded that “While the specific imagery may be culture-specific, preliminary study suggests that the phases seem to be universally applicable.” They also found similarities between the Burmese descriptions in particular and NDEs in both Asia and the West.

Quote:Furthermore, they made a startling discovery: that those who recall intermission states “tend to make more verified statements about the previous life they claim to remember than do other subjects of reincarnation type cases, and they tend to recall more names from that life.” This combination of apparently evidential anomalous information retrieval and memories of NDE-like experience between lives might lend credence to the accounts (ibid. 101). This is an important contrast to the mediumistic reports in which veridical cases rarely accompanied descriptions of the afterlife. The psychologist Titus Rivas et. al. (2015: 104) also noted “a striking similarity” between intermission memories and NDEs, including “the existence of a ‘heavenly’ realm of light and love, the decision to return to earth, and communication with other discarnate spirit beings.” They argued that combined with the evidence from NDEs, these descriptions alongside the “paranormal” aspects of reincarnation cases – in which children knew information that could not have been known by normal means – indicates that “these memories and NDEs are clearly related and convergent, and they collectively point to the reality of conscious discarnate existence.”

However, it's also noted that there are a great degree of differences across cultures, and memories that include trying to sneak into the future mother's womb are going to be suspect though I suppose one can think of this as a child trying to understand something more complicated or different from human expectation. However the universal aspects are curious ->

Quote:Stevenson (1975: 50) wrote that when subjects reported memories of intermediate states, they were clearly grounded in “local mythology” and were essentially “culture-bound fantasies.” While it was important to note the differences between accounts, as with NDEs, the similarities indicate that the intermission memories cannot have resulted purely from cultural imagination. They must have some cross-cultural (if not universal) foundational experiential elements upon which the cultural and individual interpretations are overlaid. The fact that a Druze case included intermission memories – a notion anathema to local beliefs – further demonstrates that these phenomena cannot be due solely to religion or culture.

I think we can say that with respect to the two options of Super Psi and Survival, Intermission Memories lean us toward Survival at least slightly.

The final chapter of Shusan's The Next World discuss[es] what kind of afterlife we might expect given the varied Survival evidence. Will cover that in my next post.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-06-18, 07:02 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 2 times in total.)
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(2023-06-03, 03:23 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: I won't really touch on the PLR stuff because I am deeply skeptical of past life regressions via hypnosis and AFAIK there are no good evidential cases.

James G. Matlock is similarly sceptical of regression cases. However I don't think he is so bold as to dismiss all of the evidence in one sweeping statement as you have done "AFAIK there are no good evidential cases".

At least one strong case has been covered a number of times on this forum but I understand this cause is lost so there's no point me bringing it up yet again.
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(2023-06-03, 04:42 PM)Typoz Wrote: James G. Matlock is similarly sceptical of regression cases. However I don't think he is so bold as to dismiss all of the evidence in one sweeping statement as you have done "AFAIK there are no good evidential cases".

At least one strong case has been covered a number of times on this forum but I understand this cause is lost so there's no point me bringing it up yet again.

Apologies, my point was not to make a blanket dismissal but going by my own memory and what Shushan [wrote]. If you can link to the case I'm happy to read about it...was it the case of the female Egyptologist?

It is entirely possible that in the future some change in technique will result in many good evidential PLR cases, I am not saying the very idea is impossible.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-06-03, 05:55 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
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  • Larry
(2023-06-03, 03:23 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: The final chapter of Shusan's The Next World discuss[es] what kind of afterlife we might expect given the varied Survival evidence. Will cover that in my next post.

Shushan notes that the book has gone through Survival evidence specifically to determine what the afterlife might be like. And in this vein we see that sometimes claims of what lies beyond align with our ideals - peace, unity of humanity, possibly some path to improvement & virture - but other times is culturally bound even to the point of disappointment and doubt. The latter referring to supposed spirits of slaves happy to be slaves or lower classes continuing to be in their "proper place".

There are also the varied gods and other spirit entities that are drawn from cultural expectation. This does not always seem to be the case, as sometimes NDEs seem to influence cultural shifts and there are cross-cultural elements in NDEs. However one cannot deny that a good deal of afterlife claims seem to be drawn from people's own cultural expectations.

Shushan suggests two possibilities -

1. The afterlife, at least in its early stages, conforms to certain expectations to ease the passage from this life to the next. This can include allowing the dead to create certain aspects of reality.

2. There is only one afterlife but it is clothed in imagery that suggests there are differences.

Neither of these seems too comforting, and one can't help but feel there is something forced about this to deal with what could be considered contradictory elements. However if something like Idealism is true one might expect there to be these pocket realities wherein certain afterlives correspond to the beliefs and desires of varied persons.

Thankfully we do have a set of cross-cultural elements that strengthens the idea that what lies beyond is an actual place ->

Quote:In summary, just as we dream in symbols – giving form and apparent “reality” to fears, desires, worries, hopes, and other abstract concepts without conscious intent or deliberation – it is conceivable that we manifest our afterlife experiences in the same way. NDEs are apparently universal on contextual, thematic, and interpretative levels. They also share highly specific cross-cultural similarities on the symbolic and narrative levels. The most common features can therefore give us some idea of what the afterlife experience could be like, including OBE, darkness, light, heightened awareness and emotions, meeting spirits of the dead, personal evaluation, and so on – all given specific form by our individual and cultural particularities. Such features also regularly occur in the mediumistic and PLR accounts, though the reports of intermission states in spontaneous reincarnation memories appear to be more closely aligned with NDEs and without such extensive elaboration and idiosyncrasies.

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (pp. 252-253). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

As an additional point of interest, Shushan notes the idea the early stage of the next life shows certain expected imagery is itself expected in certain religious texts ->

Quote:The Bardo Thödol (Tibetan Book of the Dead, c. eighth century CE) describes how souls undergo an expected set of intermediate postmortem experiences, though their character is determined by cultural and individual expectation. These involve leaving the body, an encounter with a bright light, having a “karmic body” formed by one’s “own past and deeds,” encounters with good and evil entities (including beings of light), darkness, fear, judgment, and punishment followed by rebirth. Afterlife images are mind-dependent manifestations of personal hopes, fears, desires and so on (Evans-Wentz 1927: 94; Hick 1976: 414, 400-3).

There are also parallels in the Vedas, which describe the heavenly realm (Svargaloka) as “a projection of the mind” and an intermediate state to be transcended by achieving moksha, or liberation (Panikkar 1977: 633)...Upanishads. Indeed, the Upanishads characterize dreaming and lucid dreaming as analogous to the afterlife state, with the atman described as “that person who, as one sleeps, roams about in dreams.” The afterlife world of the fathers, Pitaraloka, is also analogous to the dream-state...

The Lacandon Maya believe in an illusory afterlife which tests the readiness of the deceased to transcend it (Bierhorst 2002: 155), reminiscent of Tibetan Buddhism...

For myself while I accept Survival I have to admit I feel it remains a mystery of what that Survival might be like. Nor am I convinced we all go to the same places. It does seem that there may be some peace, for a time though.

So that concludes the book. Sadly I don't know if it really moved the scales between Super Psi and Survival that much, though I do think the NDE cross cultural commonalities - especially from some of the earliest civilizations - is worth looking deeper into.

There's a corner of Survival evidence we haven't really touched on, which are Death Coincidences - stuff like stopped clocks in multiple locations at the time of someone's death. These are arguably easy to claim as examples of Psi but I think they are worth examining because of the time at which they occur and at least some would involve demonstrations of PK. So will do that in the next post...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2023-06-11, 03:52 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: There's a corner of Survival evidence we haven't really touched on, which are Death Coincidences - stuff like stopped clocks in multiple locations at the time of someone's death. These are arguably easy to claim as examples of Psi but I think they are worth examining because of the time at which they occur and at least some would involve demonstrations of PK. So will do that in the next post...

Fenwick's paper Dying: a spiritual experience as shown by NDEs & Deathbed Visions mentions Death Coincidence though it's more focused on Deathbed Visions - which we've covered a bit - than some of the more just odd coincidences and synchronicities that seem to occur at someone's passing.

Fenwick also co-authored a chapter with Franklin Santana Santos in Exploring Frontiers in the Mind-Brain Relationship , the chapter title being Death, End of Life Experiences, and Their Theoretical and Clinical Implications for the Mind–Brain Relationship. Here he gets more into Death Coincidences that don't directly involve visions.

Will draw from both, and then add some other stuff.

From the paper ->

Quote:...further group of reported phenomena are deathbed coincidences. These are coincidences, reported usually by family or friends of the person who is dying, in which they say that the dying person has visited them at the
hour of death. Many relatives are reluctant to describe these phenomena, but nevertheless they are frequently reported.

Carers also occasionally report other phenomena just prior to death. They sometimes describe a radiant white light, which envelops the dying person and may spread through the room and involve the carers as well. The quality of the light is described as surrounding those who experience it with love.

And though we've covered Deathbed Visions here is a bit on that:

Quote:Very few scientific studies have been done to classify the phenomenon of deathbed visions. The largest survey was carried out by Osis and Haraldsson (1997) over 20 years ago. In a cross cultural survey they reported that over 70% of death bed visions were ‘take away.’ In a Western culture dead parents or relatives are most commonly seen; strangers are occasionally seen and children may report seeing living friends. People who have a strong religious faith may see religious figures, and in Eastern cultures the take-away figure is often a ‘Yamdoot’, the messenger of the God of death.

Usually the dying person’s response to the vision is one of interest or joy, the figures are welcome and the person is usually ready to leave with them. More rarely the response may be one of fear or a refusal to go.

It is interesting children see living friends which of course will raise doubts. However one might ask are these figures then taking the form of whoever might be comforting, rather than being deceased themselves? Or is the love the living have for the dying child allowing a part of themselves to be present? There are also the religious figures seen. However on that note I've read a lot of children see wingless angels against the cultural expectation of winged ones in art.

Of course the strongest cases, as covered previously, are when someone has a deathbed vision of someone who they don't know has already died or experiences terminal lucidity.

Tying into this are the simpler death premonitions when someone just knows they are going to die, and what might be considered precognition cases where one has a vision that someone living is dead but said person dies soon after the vision takes place.

Can possibly revisit this but want to stay focused on the Death Coincidences, which Fenwick and Santos get more into in the book chapter. Among the first is clocks stopping ->

Quote:1. ‘The TV screen went totally blank, the sound went totally and then a nurse came rushing
into the room and asked why we had pressed the alarm. At that very moment my father, 58,
took his last breath. Nobody had rung the alarm, yet it was ringing in the nurse’s offi ce and
nobody can explain why the television started malfunctioning. A short while after my
father’s passing the TV returned to normal. I later spoke to the nurse about the alarm going
off and she said it happened all the time at the point of somebody passing.’ I am neither a
believer or non-believer in an afterlife, but this has certainly opened my eyes to something
out there that nobody can understand.

2. My father died at 3.15 a.m. At about 8.30 a.m. I went to see my Uncle Archie, who’d
been close to dad, rather than ‘phone him, to tell him about losing dad and bring him back
to the house if he wished. As Uncle Archie opened the door it was clear he was distressed
and as I began to tell him of dad’s passing away he interrupted me and said he already
knew…he said no one had telephoned him but told me to look at the clock on the mantlepiece
– it was stopped at 3.15, as was indeed his own wristwatch, his bedside clock and all
other clocks in the house. There was even an LED display, I think on a radio, flashing 3.15.
I was completely taken aback, but Archie seemed comfortable with the phenomena and was
just concerned at losing someone close.’

3. On the morning of my mother’s death, I wound her clock, of which she was very fond,
and put it to the right time before going to work. While at work a nurse phoned to tell me
that my mother had died at ten minutes to eleven that morning. She had not been expected
to die that day, and I was very upset that I had not been with her. I drove straight home and
the first thing I saw on entering the house was that the clock had stopped at ten minutes to
eleven exactly. Twenty-one years later it is still going strong on my mantelpiece.

Strictly on the localized stopping of clocks Fenwick suggests the materialist possibility that maybe some kind of localized field in the skull is released out at the time of death, but that this phenomena should be far more common and measurable if that were the case.

In the Uncle Archie case (#2) you have two rather separate locations.

Other types of cases include:

Quote:If the receiver was awake, the experience usually consisted of inexplicable and overwhelming emotion on which the person felt compelled to act. Sometimes a nonspecific feeling was felt. If the coincidence occurred when the receiver was asleep, the phenomena were more complex and the experience tended to be more narrative and specific. A vision of the dying person might be seen or their voice heard. A third received a warning that the sender was dying or had died, and almost half that the sender had come to say farewell and reassure them that they would be alright.

Quote:Light seen surrounding or emanating from the body was reported by a third of the carers in the English sample, although half of the Dutch carers reported this. The light was sometimes described as a transformation of the person and at other times, small globules of light originating from the person would circulate around the room.

Cases vary from a few mere odd sparks to light leaving the person to a moment where the deceased and the loved one beside them seem to be temporarily displaced into a place consisting of light alone.

Quote:Dad passed away in the early 1980’s. At the moment of his last breath, I was at his side, holding his hand. I believe my eyes were closed. At this point I can only say that everything disappeared and was replaced by a bright white consuming light. Within this was total peace. No pain, no thought, no time. It could have lasted seconds or minutes. I have no awareness of its duration.

Quote:…Gayle came in to tell us Annick had died and we sat around the bed quietly …what I saw then was totally unexpected. Above Annick’s body the air was moving – rather like a heat haze you see on the road but swirling slowly around.

As he died something which is very hard to describe because it was so unexpected and because I had seen nothing like it left up through his body and out of his head. It resembled distinct delicate waves/lines of smoke (smoke is not the right word but I have not got a comparison) and then disappeared. I was the only one to see it. It left me with such a sense of peace and comfort. I don’t think that we were particularly close as my sister and I had
been sent off to boarding school at an early age. I do not believe in God. But as to an afterlife I now really do not know what to think.

None of the coincidences has the strength of other types of Survival evidence, and all of it [is] arguably easy to fit under Super Psi.

However it does seem odd that all that is managed are these "lesser" events when Super Psi apparently can paint birthmarks on a fetus and fill its head with memories from a previous life. OTOH you could say if Survival were true why are these events so varied.

I feel with Survival, however, you can at least posit something like a place in reality where varied events happen, a place that intersects with the living world where limitations might alter whether one person sees an apparition rise from the deceased's body and vanish in loving light whereas another person just gets heat haze.

For Super Psi everything that happens has to occur without having too much reference to any kind of space where the different psychic powers interfere with each other, because the more one explains this in terms of spatial metaphors and analogies the more it seems exactly line the kind of location Survival would take place in. [Consider the "Ocean of Information" Colin Wilson thought of as enabling Super Psi, though eventually he changed to the side of Survival.]

This question of "imperfections" in the data [where the evidence is below the claims Super Psi usually makes] is actually more interesting than I'd previously considered though, and I think revisiting certain types of cases like mediumship can yield some results. For example next post I will talk about the "Chess Match with the dead Grandmaster" where I posit the actual chess skills are arguably of lesser importance than the conversations around the game...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-06-15, 08:17 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 2 times in total.)
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(2023-06-15, 08:14 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: This question of "imperfections" in the data [where the evidence is below the claims Super Psi usually makes] is actually more interesting than I'd previously considered though, and I think revisiting certain types of cases like mediumship can yield some results. For example next post I will talk about the "Chess Match with the dead Grandmaster" where I posit the actual chess skills are arguably of lesser importance than the conversations around the game...

So the case can be found here.

Maroczy comes through a medium, plays chess in game stretching across years, and makes a lot of factual statements. It's very impressive, and a lot of people think that a medium cannot just pick up skills in such a way as to emulate the style of a grandmaster using telepathy.

I agree with all this, though what I think is most interesting is the lack of knowledge:

Quote:Asked if the name ‘Romi’ meant anything to him, Maroczy replied:
Quote:I am sorry to say that I never knew a chess-player named Romi. But I think you are wrong with the name. I had a friend in my youth, who defeated me when I was young, but he was called Romih—with an ‘h’ at the end. I then never again saw the friend whom I so admired. In 1930 at the tournament of San Remo—who is also present? My old friend Romih coming from Italy also participated in that tournament. And so it came about that I played against him one of the most thrilling matches I ever played. I suspect that you were thinking about the same person but gave the name incorrectly. 
Research showed that the name was indeed sometimes spelled with an ‘h’ at the end, Romih, as it had been spelled in the tournament record. Delving deeper, Eisenbeiss learned that Romih was of Slav origin and emigrated to Italy in 1918; in the years following the tournament he dropped the ‘h’ because it was unfamiliar to Italians.

And:

Quote:Another striking verification came about when Maroczy, asked a question to which he didn’t know the answer, provided information in an unrelated topic which proved to be more evidential.  He was asked ‘Who was the Austrian founder of the Vera Menchik club?’ Vera Menchik was the first-ever female world chess champion, holding the championship from 1927 until her death in a bombing in 1944. The ‘Vera Menchik’ club was an informal collection of men whom she defeated, and the ‘Austrian founder’ was the first member and president, having lost to Menchik in 1929. The question was posed by a Swiss chess magazine in 1988 as a reader quiz.

In answer, Maroczy confessed he could not remember and speculated that it could be one of three men, one of whom (Dr Albert Becker) was correct, but whom he incorrectly dismissed.  When the correct answer was published, Maroczy described another incident that happened at the same 1929 tournament, in Karlsbad, Germany. The world champion, Jose Raoul Capablanca of Havana, had taken up a Russian mistress who accompanied him at the tournament.  Unexpectedly, his Cuban wife showed up, and the moment Capablanca saw her, Maroczy wrote, ‘his face turned white and then red.  I was there.’13 Discomfited, the champion blundered disastrously in his next move, leading to a loss to an inferior opponent. Maroczy’s account was found to match that of an author who claimed he might be the only one who knew the reason for Capablanca’s surprising error; the only discrepancy was the colour of the mistress’s hair. The story could be found in no other source.

Even more interesting is a lot of people in the room and beyond did know the correct answer at the time, as noted in Chris Carter's Bigelow essay:

Quote:He still does not name Becker as the founder of the club, as might be expected under the Super-ESP hypothesis; once the solution was published it should be possible for the medium to access the information, either clairvoyantly, or telepathically from the minds of the magazine’s readers. But instead of correcting his wrong answer Maroczy quite unprompted comes up with a different story which evidently demanded his attention much more than the ‘silly joke’.

Another imperfection:

Quote:The 1924 New York Tournament

A similar incident occurred when Maroczy was discussing a tournament in which he performed badly (by his standards). He discusses a “thrilling game” which he (correctly) says ended in a draw, but does not reveal his final ranking, admitting “it is true for me that I am not able to remember everything, most of all whenever winning
eluded me.”

Research revealed that Maroczy finished sixth in the tournament.

Carter references some commentary:

Quote:Eisenbeiss and Hassler concluded:

Quote:Because Maroczy claimed to know Romih from his youth, it is logical that he
would have known the original spelling of Romih’s name and would not have
replaced it with the later Italianization. For the Super-ESP Hypothesis to work, the
controlling mind, on perceiving varying references to Romih or Romi, would have
to be able to grasp the correct one from Maroczy’s perspective, decide to address
the situation, formulate a response to the conflict and dramatize it in the context
of a teasing dialogue with Eisenbeiss/Rollans about their ignorance of the correct
spelling.

Quote:Eisenbeis and Hassler concluded:

Quote:In our example Maroczy’s rationale for forgetting the name of a man whom he
would have considered to be merely indulging a pointless joke but then relating
an unprompted story about a woman whose beauty had impressed him is
plausible, whereas for Rollans the medium it is difficult to understand [if using
Super-ESP] why he should be unable to retrieve the name requested, given his
ability to convey detailed precise information on other occasions, even less why
he should digress to an umprompted narrative thread.

Quote:If Rollans were trying to engineer a story with verifiable facts as evidence of
survival, he could have inserted Maroczy’s final ranking, a checkable fact. Clearly,
elsewhere the Maroczy transcripts contain innumerable such verifiable facts. …
we know Maroczy to have been very ambitious and it is thus entirely in character
that he would omit reporting failures or mediocre tournament rankings. Yet for
Rollans, whose main objective was to provide convincing evidence to support the
survival hypothesis, it would make no sense to censor information concerning
Maroczy’s failures.

I think these kind of instances where, against the background of Maroczy's skill and play style + a lot of verified facts, there are imperfections in knowledge that could easily have been filled in by ESP are of great interest.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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Another "imperfection", from Nahm's Bigelow Essay:

Quote:CORT involving unrelated families are particularly frequent in Sri Lanka. But although the
subjects of these cases provide just as much information about their past lives as children in
many other countries, they rarely mention personal names. Consequently, an unusually high
proportion of 76% of Sri Lankan CORT remained unsolved in Stevenson’s files.[72] I have
already mentioned that unsolved cases pose a problem for the motivated physicalist model, but
the extraordinary share of unsolved cases in Sri Lanka flatly contradicts what must be expected. It
isn’t reasonable to assume that all these people launched complex hoaxes but omitted, of all
things, the most relevant details. But this curious lack of providing names matches the survival
model: At least when Stevenson conducted his investigations, people in Sri Lanka avoided using
personal names as much as possible for traditional reasons.

I'm not 100% sure Stevenson is correct about that, at least not exactly. But I do think this is another instance where the failure [of a certain limited kind] actually hurts Super Psi explanations.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-06-20, 05:38 AM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
A quick detour back to drop in cases:

See this thread for more details but the Emil Jensen case [if assumed to be genuine] is an example of a very good case of someone speaking through a medium:

Quote:To sum up, matching the original records of the sittings with archival information confirmed both the entity’s claimed identity, and the events it described. The entity was not related to or known to the sitters; it spoke in a language not spoken by the medium; in modern times, a record has been found that such a person did exist; that person died some years before the sittings with Indridason in the 1900s; and the then contemporary events also took place. Haraldsson titled his report: “A perfect case?” (Haraldsson, 2011). So what do we do with a sophisticated, coherent physical manifestation of a classic ‘drop-in’ communicator, familiar from mental mediumship?
 -Zofia Weaver
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2023-07-06, 06:30 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(2020-07-26, 09:34 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: A little bit more on this question of controls and how they could be subpersonalities as well as spirit entities ->

Some more stuff from Prescott as spirits influencing human personality or seemingly existing as subpersonalities/multiples that can be banished:

Spooks run wild

I'm not 100% sure these are actual ghosts, for example the first example case seems like pushing off "bad taste" into a stereotyped version of someone in a lower economic class:

Yet Fiore does have success in talking to these personalities and asking them to leave. So are these entities perhaps confused deceased persons clinging to some aspect of earthly life, or alters created akin to the way the Idealist Kastrup suggests  we're all alter personalities of Mind@Large?

The other entities Prescott talks about in another post also seem to exist in this greyspace of subpersonalities and spirits:

Who's there?

Now these are very acute examples of personalities influencing hosts. However this idea of someone else overshadowing your personality or spirits sharing your body are ideas that the Ancients had long considered. For example the Greeks believing the gods coming over you in moments of extreme emotion, or the Egyptian belief in multiple souls said to dwell in the body.

There's also the long standing idea of the Daimon, the spirit that is both muse and drive and possibly a kind of Guardian Angel.

Some more stuff on this ->

Adam Crabtree surveys various models of the mind:

Eric Weiss suggests that we are continually inhabiting with varied subpersonalities (this is the public domain version of the book Long Trajectory)


It is interesting to note that some DID patients describe the mind as a place in which they dwell in some sort of area with the other personalities.

All of these examples might help us understand controls as entities that are in some way spirit individuals but also bound to the conscious self.

This interview gives some more potential credence to the idea that some supposed "sub-personalities" are in fact spirits themselves:

'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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