Super-Psi & some notes from Braude's Immortal Remains

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(2022-08-13, 03:37 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: Going back in this thread to an issue I don't think was fully explored:

Re. "super-Psi" or Living Agent Psi (LAP) as a general explanation for the afterlife evidence and therefore denying the reality of the afterlife: 

I think it is DOA for many reasons, probably the most telling one being the empirical evidence of veridical NDEs. Which are first-hand accounts of vivid "realer-than real" paranormal experiences of enhanced consciousness while out of body that would require detailed and absolutely impossibly convoluted and unlikely mechanisms to have been generated by LAP rather than being actually what they clearly have been experienced as by the NDEers.

NDE features needed to be synthesized by LAP would have to include in addition to the investigated and verified veridical evidence, the common feature of a profound life-changing transformation in personality including loss of fear of death and fundamental change in orientation, toward love and spirituality, and conviction that they are not their body (engendered by vivid realer-than-real first-hand experiences of being out of body). 

Using LAP to debunk NDEs is exceedingly implausible.

I think that the underlying motivation of most proponents of LAP is to adopt a less career-threatening stance vs. the modern secular religon of materialist reductionist scientism. To adopt a model that since it denies the reality of any afterlife, therefore less dramatically challenges the prevailing mainstream paradigm. After all, to explain psi and esp naturalistically may be at least remotely possible and less of a challenge to scientism than a model containing an afterlife and the existence of an immaterial mobile center of consciousness (i.e. spirit) that can survive physical death, which is absolute heresy to scientism.

I mentioned it briefly in this thread because it felt implausible but the idea from LAP supporters is that the experience of being Out of Body is a hallucination while the information gained is through LAP. This extended even to pressure measurements that indicated the presence of an astral/subtle-body...the argument went something like the measurements are genuine PK but there is no actual subtle body...

It very much feels like a cheat. Really the credence for LAP seems to come from mediumship which has hits but also wild inaccuracies...however even there, regarding the question Shushan tries to answer - What is the Afterlife actually like? - it isn't clear to me that we have many good cases where a channeled figure provides evidence of their existence *and* then describes the afterlife...there are the Cross Correspondence cases but outside that not sure? However there do seem to be commonalities between some of these descriptions and commonalities found in NDEs & in-between-lives memories of certain reincarnation cases.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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So regarding the last post on Shushan's The Next World:


Quote:1. ...he revived “and said he had witnessed all sorts of things relating to kwei [demons] and shen [deities] in the heavens and on earth, with the sensation of being in a dreaming state, and by no means dead” (de Groot 1892: IV, 127).

2. Plutarch recounted the experience of Thespesius...Thespesius returned transformed into an honest, devout man and “altered the whole course of his life” (Plutarch in Platthy 1992: 74).

3. Some 2,000 miles away and 500 years later, a Spanish monk named Peter apparently died and was “restored to life again.” ...This is one of five such accounts found in the Dialogues of Pope Gregory I (c. 593/4) (Gardiner 1989: 47-50), followed by dozens of others from throughout medieval Europe.

The first book, on Chinese religion by de Groot, can be found in the public domain here. It seems more mythical than a definite record, as the corpse apparently is dead for several days. OTOH perhaps the person was ill for a few days but in the context of the text it's about people who live after being buried for some time.

The second book, Platthy's Near-death Experiences in Antiquity, is out of print and AFAICTell not a public domain document online. However we do get some details about Thespesius in a paper by Marinus van der Sluijs on three ancient NDEs:


Quote:...reported in Plutarch’s The Divine Vengeance (1984, pp. 268–299; 22–33 [563D-568A]). This account concerned a man from Soli, Cilicia, whose original name was Aridaeus, but who was given the new name of Thespesius in the course of his sojourn in the ‘other world.’

‘‘He had fallen from a height and struck his neck, and although there had been no wound, but only a concussion, he died away. On the third day, at the very time of his funeral, he revived’’ (p. 271). Plutarch related that this man, while appearing to be dead, had the sensation that ‘‘his intelligence was driven from his body’’ and that he ‘‘had risen somewhat and was breathing with his whole being and seeing on all
sides, his soul having opened wide as if it were a single eye’’ (p. 273).

Having familiarized himself with the mobility of his new ‘body’ and noted the presence of souls of many different types in the elevated environment to which he had ascended, Aridaeus ‘‘recognized one soul,
that of a kinsman, though not distinctly, as he was but a child when the kinsman died; but it drew near and said: ‘Greetings, Thespesius’’’ (p. 277). This ‘guide’ then took Thespesius on a tour of the various
regions in the ‘afterlife.’ These regions included ‘‘a great chasm extending all the way down ... called the place of Lethe’’ (p. 285) and another ‘‘deep chasm in the ambient’’ (p. 287; see also Mead, 1907, p.
27) which was ‘‘a large crater with streams pouring into it, one whiter than sea-foam or snow, another like the violet of the rainbow, and others of different tints, each having from afar a lustre of its own’’ (p.
287). Thespesius also saw a region with ‘‘those who were suffering punishment’’ (pp. 291, 293). The ‘‘final spectacle of his vision’’ was that of ‘‘the souls returning to a second birth, as they were forcibly bent to fit all manner of living things and altered in shape by the framers of these’’ (p. 297). While he was watching this scene, a ‘‘woman interposed, and he was suddenly pulled away as by a cord and cast in a strong and violent gust of wind upon his body, opening his eyes again almost from his very grave’’ (p. 299).


Finally, the third & last NDE mentioned in the opening is found in Visions of Heaven and Hell Before Dante by Eileen Gardner. There's a few additional NDE tales in there and I'll get into those in the next post.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(2022-08-16, 02:41 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Finally, the third & last NDE mentioned in the opening is found in Visions of Heaven and Hell Before Dante by Eileen Gardner. There's a few additional NDE tales in there and I'll get into those in the next post.

For a reminder, from my first post on Shushan's book:

"Some 2,000 miles away and 500 years later, a Spanish monk named Peter apparently died and was “restored to life again.” He described seeing men who knew suffering various torments in hell, then being rescued from the same fate by an angel. The angel sent him back to his body, instructing him lead a better life, which he did after “waking out of the sleep of everlasting death.” This is one of five such accounts found in the Dialogues of Pope Gregory I (c. 593/4) (Gardiner 1989: 47-50), followed by dozens of others from throughout medieval Europe."

From Gardiner's Visions of Heaven & Hell before Dante:

Quote:A certain Slav was a monk and lived with me here in this city in my monastery. He used to tell me that when he lived in the wilderness he knew a monk named Peter, who was born in Spain. He lived with him in the vast desert called Evasa. He said that Peter told him how, before he came to dwell in that place, he had died from a certain illness and was immediately restored to life again. He declared that he had seen the torments and innumerable places of hell and many people, who were mighty in this world, hanging in those flames. As he himself was carried to be thrown also into the same fire, an angel in beautiful attire suddenly appeared. The angel would not allow him to be cast into those torments but spoke to him in this manner: “Go back again, and from now on look carefully after yourself and how you lead your life.” After these words his body grew warm little by little. Waking out of this sleep of everlasting death, he reported all those things that happened around him. Then he devoted himself to such fasting and vigils that, although he said nothing, his very life and conversation still spoke of the torments that he had seen and still feared. Thus God’s merciful providence arranged by his temporal death that he did not die forever.

Gardiner, Eileen. Visions of Heaven & Hell before Dante (p. 50). Italica Press. Kindle Edition.

And here's some information on the Dialogues of Pope Gregory from Wikipedia.

Also some details from Medieval Near-Death Experiences entry in the Psi Encyclopedia:

Quote:The sixth-century pope Gregory the Great included three NDE tales in the fourth book of his Dialogues. In the first, a hermit who revives from death reports that he visited hell, where he saw powerful men dangling in fire and found himself being dragged in before being rescured by an angel, who told him to ‘consider carefully how you will live from now on’. The hermit is transformed, undertaking fasts and vigils.

The second concerns a businessman named Stephen who does not believe in hell but is forced to change his view when he temporarily dies and sees it for himself. It appears that this is a case of mistaken identity, the intended victim having been ‘Stephen the blacksmith’. The death at the same hour of a blacksmith named Stephen is given as evidence of veridicality.

In the third anecdote, a soldier struck by plague in Rome recounts:

Quote:[T]here was a bridge, under which ran a black, gloomy river which breathed forth an intolerably foul-smelling vapor. But across the bridge there were delightful meadows carpeted with green grass and sweet smelling flowers … meeting places for people clothed in white … If any unjust person wished to cross, he slipped and fell into the dark and stinking water. But the just, who were not blocked by guilt, freely and easily made their way across to the region of delight.

He recognizes Stephen the businessman, whose foot slips on the bridge; as he dangles, good spirits try to raise him by the arms and evil spirits try to drag him down by the hips, symbolizing respectively his generosity in alms-giving and his carnal vices.4

The rest of the entry also gives us a sense of more historical context.

Shushan gives us a few more NDEs across space and time:

- From the Florentine Codex (approx 15 century) he notes the NDE of Quetzalpetlatl, who meets dead relatives and the rain god Tlaloc. It's recorded she returned with some healing abilities.

- Thomas Harriot is told of two Native American NDEs (public domain) (1588)

Quote:For the confirmation of this opinion, they tolde me two stories of two men that had been lately dead and revived againe, the one happened but few yeres before our comming into the countrey of a wicked man which having beene dead and buried, the next day the earth of the grave beeing seene to move, was taken up againe; Who made declaration where his soule had beene, that is to saie very neere entring into Popogusso, had not one of the gods saved him & gave him leave to returne againe, and teach his friends what they should doe to avoid that terrible place of torment.

The other happened in the same yeere wee were there, but in a towne that was threescore miles from vs, and it was tolde mee for straunge newes that one beeing dead, buried and taken up againe as the first, shewed that although his bodie had lien dead in the grave, yet his soule was alive, and had travailed farre in a long broade way, on both sides whereof grew most delicate and pleasant trees, bearing more rare and excellent fruites then ever he had seene before or was able to expresse, and at length came to most brave and faire houses, neere which hee met his father, that had beene dead before, who gaue him great charge to goe backe againe and shew his friendes what good they were to doe to enioy the pleasures of that place, which when he had done he should after come againe.

- The next is from An account of the Mamaia or Visionary Heresy of Tahiti which is sadly not in the public domain. It's about a woman who dies in the 1800s, sees her dead relatives, and is told she must return to the world of the living. Upon her return she was however happy and became a more spiritual person.

- In the 1900s, from William Charles Willoughby's Soul of the Bantu a Bagamma Ngwato boy dies, goes to place where he sees deceased relatives (brother, father, uncle) but is told by his uncle he must return to the world of the living. However the boy notes "they sent me back with great peace". This is one of a dozen such accounts according to Shushan.

So Shushan gives us NDEs from 3rd Century BCE China to the 1900s in Africa from around the world. Shushan notes these NDEs span about 2500 yrs in seven different religious traditions. This far predates Moody's 1975 work that (IIRC) coined the term "Near Death Experience".

We aren't far enough yet to compare to Super Psi, but one does wonder why the commonalities occur across places and times. This will become more interesting as Shushan looks into NDEs that seemed to influence religious belief rather than simply echo details of the religious context of the NDEr.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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To continue with this reading of Shusan's The Next World, the next part of Shushan's book was a variety of NDE historical debate. He gets into the skeptic vs proponent stuff (like the DMT in the brain debate) but I feel like most of this has been covered excellently by Tim and others.

Apparently Ring noted there was a lack of life reviews in NDEs due to suicide, but this is from 1980 so I don't know if that has held up. Though this is a new book some of the data seems old.

This was an interesting tidbit:

Quote:In Native North America, for example, NDEs were commonly valorized, and attempts were made to replicate them in shamanic visionary practices. In Africa, however, NDEs were often considered to be aberrational, viewed through the lens of local possession and sorcery beliefs, and were thus rarely incorporated into accepted afterlife conceptions. Furthermore, despite the cross-cultural similarities of these narratives to those found in other parts of the world, certain NDE elements do seem to correspond to social organization or scale. Aside from a lack of life reviews, only in small-scale societies, for example, do NDEs commonly feature an afterlife realm located in or accessed via an earthly locale, and which is reached by walking along a path or road.

Will have to look more into Indigenous NDEs.

A few more tidbits from this reading:

Quote:The investigation of NDEs in the blind is another important area of research, for they report visual perceptions during the experience. Dozens of such cases have been published, including from individuals who have been blind since birth. This is significant because people who have never had the resources to “model reality” in the way Blackmore describes should not be able to do so during an NDE. Rather than simply impressions of light and darkness, their accounts include detailed observations of hospital rooms during OBEs, deceased relatives, and so on. This is in striking contrast to dreams of the blind, which are not visual (Ring & Cooper 1997, 1999).

I guess this could be Super Psi, but I think the challenge again is the lack of evolutionary explanation. It just seems odd that Super Psi can let you see things when you are blind, but only at the point of having an NDE.

Quote:Interestingly, this is explicitly supported in the Bardo Thödol which states that a “Clear Light” will appear in whatever form is most beneficial to the individual: as the Buddha to a Buddhist, as Vishnu to a Vaishnava Hindu, as Jesus to a Christian, or as Muhammad to a Muslim (Badham 1997). The description of dying in the Bardo Thödol, in fact, so closely corresponds to the NDE that it can effectively be seen as verification that the book genuinely is what it purports to be – a preparation for what happens at death.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2022-08-26, 05:48 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
The next part of Shushan's book is Revelations in NDEs, where he examines the potential value for (and to a degree against) the Survival Hypothesis.

The big thing in this chapter is the way NDEs influence cultural and personal beliefs, as opposed to NDEs simply drawing from cultural elements that already exist.

He starts with noting the earliest documented NDEs are likely from China, with the Myth of Er in Plato's dialogues being unlcear as to being fictional or genuine. The NDE record of the local Chinese ruler Jianzi from 498 BCE also includes an account 150 years earlier (658-620 BCE) of the ruler Muh of Tsin. Both accounts include visiting the Emperor of Heaven who gives both men prophecies. Jianzi's account seems more of an adventure where he heard music and saw dancers and also fought & killed two bears. Jianzi also claims to recognize a man who he saw as a child during his NDE, and the man also corroborated the meeting.

Shusan continues with the story of Arda Wiraf/Wiraz, whose NDE is recorded in the Book of Arda Wiraf. From Wikipedia:


Quote:Here he is greeted by a beautiful woman named Dēn, who represents his faith and virtue. Crossing the Chinvat Bridge, he is then conducted by "Srosh, the pious and Adar, the yazad" through the "star track", "moon track" and "sun track" – places outside of heaven reserved for the virtuous who have nevertheless failed to conform to Zoroastrian rules. In heaven, Wirāz meets Ahura Mazda who shows him the souls of the blessed (ahlaw, an alternate Middle Persian version of the word ardā[4]). Each person is described living an idealised version of the life he or she lived on earth, as a warrior, agriculturalist, shepherd or other profession.[9] With his guides he then descends into hell to be shown the sufferings of the wicked. Having completed his visionary journey, Wirāz is told by Ahura Mazda that the Zoroastrian faith is the only proper and true way of life and that it should be preserved in both prosperity and adversity.[9]


Shushan then compares this journey of Wiraf with the NDE of Christina Mirabilis (Christina the Astonishing). From Wikipedia:


Quote:Her notability began when she was 21 years old. About to be buried and already in the church resting in an open coffin, according to the custom of the time, during the Agnus Dei of her funeral Mass she arose, stupefying with amazement the whole city of St. Trond, which had witnessed this wonder. She subsequently lived a long life, dying at the age of seventy-four.



Quote:he suffered a massive seizure when she was in her early 20s. Her condition was so severe that witnesses assumed she had died. A funeral was held, but during the service, "she arose full of vigour, stupefying with amazement the whole city of Sint-Truiden, which had witnessed this wonder. She levitated up to the rafters, later explaining that she could not bear the smell of the sinful people there."[4]

She related that she had witnessed Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. She said that as soon as her soul was separated from her body, angels conducted it to a very gloomy place, entirely filled with souls enduring such torments that it was impossible to describe them. She claimed that she had been offered a choice of either remaining in heaven or returning to earth to perform penance in order to deliver souls from the flames of Purgatory.[3] Christina agreed to return to life and in that instant stood up. She told those around her that she had returned to life for the sole purpose of bringing relief to the departed and conversion to sinners. Christina renounced all of life's comforts, reduced herself to extreme destitution, dressed in rags, lived without home or hearth, and not content with these privations eagerly sought out all that could cause her suffering. At first, she fled human contact and, suspected of being possessed, was jailed. Upon her release, she took up the practice of extreme penance.[2]



Next Shushan gives some more personal relevations, such as that of Yuan Zhizong whose NDE involves meeting a monk who cuts him up the way he prepared the dead animals he hunted. The monk ultimately washes away his sin but tells him not to eat animals again. Then he writes of the ancient Greek Eurynous who returns as a more just man but is apparently told to keep much of what he saw a secret.

Next post will get into some historical NDE cases which include empirical validation.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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Thanks @Sciborg_S_Patel for the thread. I’ve read it from beginning to end. Ultimately I too err on the side of survival, even though there are certainly a lot of holes one can poke in that idea by going over all the available data. But in the end I agree that trying to fit super-psi into every single paranormal account out there just gets too convoluted. And yes, the idea that the mind can project itself anywhere in space and seemingly even time but it still lives and dies with the brain simply becomes quite dubious.
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(2023-04-17, 10:45 AM)adamkallin Wrote: Thanks @Sciborg_S_Patel for the thread. I’ve read it from beginning to end. Ultimately I too err on the side of survival, even though there are certainly a lot of holes one can poke in that idea by going over all the available data. But in the end I agree that trying to fit super-psi into every single paranormal account out there just gets too convoluted. And yes, the idea that the mind can project itself anywhere in space and seemingly even time but it still lives and dies with the brain simply becomes quite dubious.

Glad you liked this thread - I really wanted to just compare Super Psi vs Survival so I didn't worry too much about whether the accounts were valid as that adds a whole extra dimension. I largely went from Braude's opinion of the cases, along with Chris Carter, Alan Gauld, and a few others.

I still need to add some more from other texts, will ideally do that soon - your post is a good reminder so thanks for that!
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2022-09-13, 04:50 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Next post will get into some historical NDE cases which include empirical validation.

Shushan gives us a few cases which are mentioned very briefly. To give some examples -

- 1913 NDE where woman, named Bertha, meets future daughters. (See here for more on NDEs that include visions of unborn children)

- 1923 NDE where man is forewarned about deaths of family members who will pass before his time comes.

- 1669 English NDE where girl has Peak-in-Darien experience of seeing a few people who were not yet known to have died.

- 1887 NDE of Native American girl of Deg Hit'an tribe who sees her father, only to learn upon waking that he had died. This NDE apparently led to new cultural feasts & funerary offerings were added to the tribe's traditions.

Nothing really new here so won't dwell on it. I do think that when deciding between Survival and Super-Psi, I would think the visions of unborn children would support Survival. Of course in today's time we would probably want a sketch of what the future child should look like...

There are also NDEs mentioned by Shushan that had cultural impact on religious beliefs, but most of these aren't really evidential. The cultural aspects are arguably more on the side of Super Psi, though Shushan does note a variety of commonalities across cultures that seem to occur often. Additionally he quotes historian Stephen Potthoff on how NDEs actually added to culture rather than just drew from it:

Quote:“The shared, communal Christian vision of the afterlife as paradise emerged and evolved over time, drawing its inspiration and validation from the near-death otherworld journeys of martyrs, monks, and ordinary Christians alike.”

He also notes that the research of religious scholar Åke Hultkrantz argues that many Native American traditions were born from NDErs as well as the importance of NDEs on Pureland Buddhism.

This is a tricky to parse - one could say artifacts of imagination can be somewhat novel but not prove there is a spiritual world, and I would agree with that. My guess is people prefer modern NDEs over some of these historical ones that seem at times to be altered to support one religion or another. Or if not altered then heavily influenced by the NDEr's prior beliefs.

That said, Shushan does give two examples of people who were naturalist/materialist in their outlook but changed to some degree after an NDE:

Quote:As mentioned in the Introduction, while publicly admitting only that his experience had “slightly weakened” his conviction that death is the end of consciousness, shortly after his NDE, materialist philosopher A. J. Ayer was so moved by his experience of seeing “a Divine Being” that he believed he’d have to reassess his life’s work (Foges 2010). Likewise, prior to his own experience in 1983, mathematical physicist and psychologist John Wren-Lewis (1995) regarded mysticism as a form of neurosis. Not only did his NDE run contrary to his expectations, it also resulted directly in new spiritual beliefs, namely “that proponents of the so-called Perennial Philosophy are correct in identifying a common ‘deep structure’ of experience underlying the widely different cultural expressions of mystics in all traditions.”

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (p. 62). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

There's also Jung's NDE, of which he said:

Quote:It is perhaps unsurprising that a person who devoted so much of his life and thought to theorizing about dreams, myths, religions, symbols, and archetypes would have an NDE that reflects these preoccupations. Nevertheless, Jung did not interpret the experience as a product of his own learned and fertile imagination, and in fact it seemed to have had a profound influence on his thinking about consciousness and the possibility of life after death. A few months after the experience he wrote in a letter, “What happens after death is so unspeakably glorious that our imagination and our feelings do not suffice to form even an approximate conception of it.” In addition to revelations about the nature of the afterlife, Jung also revived with a premonition of his doctor’s death, which soon came true.

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (p. 68). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Admittedly the skeptic let alone Super-Psi advocate can say these may run counter to vocalized beliefs but in and of themselves are not proof of Survival.

Will keep going through the historical cases to see any that really push for Super Psi or Survival. Most really don't seem to offer much either way but the next chapter of the book deals with incredibly ancient NDEs so we'll see...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2023-05-25, 10:59 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Will keep going through the historical cases to see any that really push for Super Psi or Survival. Most really don't seem to offer much either way but the next chapter of the book deals with incredibly ancient NDEs so we'll see...

Yeah wasn't much in here that hasn't been covered before. A lot of cultural differences but some core similarities.

Shushan notes:

Quote:...the beliefs and ideas summarized here have no known forebears or previous textual models upon which they could have been based, and thus contain the world’s earliest recorded conceptions of the afterlife. This means that any cross-cultural similarities between them cannot be explained by transmission from one civilization to the next. We must therefore look elsewhere for an explanation of their shared ideas.

With the similarities including:

Quote:Despite innumerable differences, on a thematic level all traditions reviewed here include descriptions of leaving the body and existing in non-physical or quasi-physical form, journeys to other realms seen as a return to the origin-point or “home,” experiences of both darkness and light, meeting deceased relatives, judgement or evaluation of one’s earthly conduct, an afterlife fate determined by the outcome, encounters with deities and other beings associated with light, obstacles or barriers, divinization or the association/union of the self with the divine or Ultimate Reality, and a preoccupation with the reconciliation of opposites suggesting transcendence. The notion of an encounter with one’s own corpse leading to the realization of survival after death was also common.

These are also some of the most commonly reported elements of NDE reports. This suggests that people across cultures may have been familiar with the phenomenon and that it influenced their afterlife beliefs – filtered, of course, through layers of culture, language, and individuality. The very existence of the cross-cultural similarities indicates that the experience preceded conception. To argue the reverse does not explain how a set of thematically similar ideas could be independently invented, or how it could influence/create spontaneous, unsought NDEs.

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (p. 102). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

It is definitely interesting but I am not sure if the similarities are specific enough to say they must have a common source. I do think it's worth digging deeper into ancient NDEs, but something for another thread.

I don't count this as strong evidence of Survival over Super-Psi, but if there are greater similarities in the most ancient civilizations that didn't have cross-cultural contact I think it would at least count more for Survival than Super-Psi.

Next chapter is Shamanic Experiences & NDEs in the indigenous traditions of Oceania.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2023-05-26, 03:48 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Next chapter is Shamanic Experiences & NDEs in the indigenous traditions of Oceania.

A variety of OOBE experiences tied to shamanism and NDEs. Not much here to really weight between Super Psi or Survival.

The commonality and documentation of the NDE experience suggests at least some NDE knowledge preceded cultural mythologizing, OTOH a lot of NDEs seem to draw from mythological elements of their respective regions.

Quote:In both Polynesia and Melanesia, they explicitly allowed for the possibility of the soul returning to the body. In other words, the eventuality of NDEs occurring was built into the ritual and belief system surrounding death and the afterlife. In Hawaii especially, great care was taken to avoid premature burial, with bodies being checked periodically for a heartbeat for a number of days prior to interment (Green & Beckwith 1926: 177). Practices were similar on Tahiti, and much effort was expended in keeping alive those in danger of death (Oliver 1974: 488, 496). Maori burial was performed a minimum of three days after death (Frazer 1922: 20), and efforts were made to restore souls of the recently dead to their bodies (Best 1901: 10; Goldie, 1904: 20). This was also the case on Mota Lava in Melanesia (Codrington 1891: 266-267). On Kiwai and in the Tanga Islands, bodies were not buried until decomposition (Landtman 1917: 12; Bell 1937: 321-322). The Dobu of the D’Entrecasteaux Islands believed that otherworld spirits ensured that souls were truly dead by admitting only those whose bodies had begun to decay (Fortune 1963: 181–182). Such practices and beliefs likely facilitated the occurrence of NDEs, though it is important not to overgeneralize.

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (pp. 130-131). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Quote:In my book Near-Death Experiences in Indigenous Religions I examined how NDEs are incorporated into the beliefs systems of different indigenous societies around the world. I found that many cultures valorized NDEs, and even based their afterlife beliefs upon them. This was most often the case with Native American peoples across the continent. In contrast, while other cultures also incorporated knowledge of NDEs into their belief systems, they did so in very different ways. In many African societies, NDEs were regarded with fear, as something aberrant, dangerous, and perhaps even due to witchcraft and sorcery. The indigenous societies of Oceania can be seen as almost a microcosm of the findings of that book. As with the Native American model, some cultures exemplify the experiential source hypothesis – that NDEs gave rise to afterlife beliefs. Others, however, are more aligned to the African model – that NDEs are viewed as a possible threat to the natural order.

Shushan, Gregory . The Next World: Extraordinary Experiences of the Afterlife (pp. 134-135). White Crow Productions Ltd. Kindle Edition.

Next chapter is Victorian Edwardian mediumship...though I can already say there isn't much new there I'll highlight a few bits of potential interest...
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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