Is the human self nonexistent?

[Ninshub]

What is the "learning" mentioned in this latest part of the discussion meant to encompass? Is it only a) information or semantic knowledge, and b) spiritual/moral lessons?

Would c) simply gathering experience be considered as "learning"?

And, maybe as a subset of c), would a soul knowing everything intellectually (let's assume that is so on the hypothesis that it has no limitations and is connected without any "veil" to Source or to All That Is), but needing to have an incarnate experience to feel what that experience is like considered "learning"?

There may simply not be any learning going on?

Survival doesn't necessarily indicate anything meaningful is happening, though it seems a few NDEs may suggest the some entities have tried to set things up so that learning of some sort occurs. (I don't take the message from most channeling as seriously, so I'm ignoring that side of things.)

But not all of us may be eligible for that particular track, assuming it exists.

True, all the elaborate reincarnational schemes and systems may be human imagination and rationalizations fuelled by the human need for meaning and goodness. But the meaninglessness of a major aspect of spiritual and material existence surely leads to existential nihilism and moving into a rather dark place, the opposite of the obvious meaning and message to be derived from the actual experiences of deep NDEers (unless that is all deception). The next step up a little from that abysmal possibility would be that there is at least a little meaning, derived by the soul from the mere entertainment of observing and partially and vicariously experiencing the earth life of its human avatar from a removed and comfortable relaxed place. I would prefer not to believe that either, of course. But it's a logical possibility.

True, all the elaborate reincarnational schemes and systems may be human imagination and rationalizations fuelled by the human need for meaning and goodness. But the meaninglessness of a major aspect of spiritual and material existence surely leads to existential nihilism and moving into a rather dark place, the opposite of the obvious meaning and message to be derived from the actual experiences of deep NDEers (unless that is all deception). The next step up a little from that abysmal possibility would be that there is at least a little meaning, derived by the soul from the mere entertainment of observing and partially and vicariously experiencing the earth life of its human avatar from a removed and comfortable relaxed place. I would prefer not to believe that either, of course. But it's a logical possibility.

Terrence McKenna once said top-down imposed Meaning would feel like a chokehold/shackle, but what was important was if reality was like a fallow soil where we could decide to live in ways meaningful to ourselves.

While there are no guarantees, it does *seem* that there are at the least groups of souls that sought to overlay meaning onto the bare fact of the afterlife. This of course gets into some thorny issues like the possibility of afterlife realms created by human imagination/belief...do we think of these as illusory? What lies beyond these dream-spaces?

For myself I hope there is some kind of adventure, along with a reunion between loved ones. That's probably already a lot to ask for, but I would admit disappointment if I ended up in one of the realms where you have to take up a new 9-5 job...

Terrence McKenna once said top-down imposed Meaning would feel like a chokehold/shackle, but what was important was if reality was like a fallow soil where we could decide to live in ways meaningful to ourselves.

While there are no guarantees, it does *seem* that there are at the least groups of souls that sought to overlay meaning onto the bare fact of the afterlife. This of course gets into some thorny issues like the possibility of afterlife realms created by human imagination/belief...do we think of these as illusory? What lies beyond these dream-spaces?

For myself I hope there is some kind of adventure, along with a reunion between loved ones. That's probably already a lot to ask for, but I would admit disappointment if I ended up in one of the realms where you have to take up a new 9-5 job...

Then do you think that all the wonderful accounts from deep NDEers of light and love, encounters with a being of light, reunions, etc. etc. (all "realer than real" experiences and with the clear implication that the Truth is being revealed), are the result of deception by whatever powers that be? It occurs to me that that would be somewhat contrary to the principle of parsimony, since it would require a lot of additional auxiliary hypotheses, additional complication.

Then do you think that all the wonderful accounts from deep NDEers of light and love, encounters with a being of light, reunions, etc. etc. (all "realer than real" experiences and with the clear implication that the Truth is being revealed), are the result of deception by whatever powers that be? It occurs to me that that would be somewhat contrary to the principle of parsimony, since it would require a lot of additional auxiliary hypotheses, additional complication.

I don't think it would be deception in the Gnostic sense, that some entities are creating these realms for their own parasitic benefit. They could however simply be the result of a reality that conforms to desires & beliefs.

But I would say we simply are missing a lot of details. What to make of darker NDEs, or the revelations of mediums of afterlives that are quite mundane if not outright boring? Of those strange realities sometimes described by shamanic journeying?

Also, what exactly is the Truth being revealed? That "All is Love"? - surely a nice sentiment but it doesn't provide a clear direction nor does it necessarily alleviate the varied problems that seem to exist in life....so why should we think this sentiment alleviates problems that could occur in the afterlife?

Then do you think that all the wonderful accounts from deep NDEers of light and love, encounters with a being of light, reunions, etc. etc. (all "realer than real" experiences and with the clear implication that the Truth is being revealed), are the result of deception by whatever powers that be? It occurs to me that that would be somewhat contrary to the principle of parsimony, since it would require a lot of additional auxiliary hypotheses, additional complication.

When you use the term 'deception' here, I'm not sure of the context. Do you mean that since this life is (by comparison) less real, that we are currently deceived? That does overlap with ideas of this life being an illusion, and the river of forgetfulness, the Lethe plays a role in Greek mythology.
https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-h...7#pid43817

[Ninshub]

Also, what exactly is the Truth being revealed? That "All is Love"? - surely a nice sentiment but it doesn't provide a clear direction nor does it necessarily alleviate the varied problems that seem to exist in life....so why should we think this sentiment alleviates problems that could occur in the afterlife?

Maybe it depends on what you've read. Speaking for myself, there are quite a few books, NDEr Nanci Danison's books, Robert Schwartz's books of knowings through channeling and mediumship, NDEr Natalie Sudman's book, now Christian Sandburg's book (and interviews), Bob Olson's Answers about the Afterlife that compiles and brings together the knowledge from all the different interviewees he's had and his research into the areas (ADCs, NDEs, mediums, you name it), Tom Campbell's Big Toe, just to name those, and overall the answers are pretty similar and I'd say all of them give pretty clear direction about living life and why life on Earth is the way it is, and explain how that combines with "All Is Love" to use to those exact words.

So my experience is quite the opposite of yours. I have the sense that pretty much any question I have I have an answer to potentially. Of course this is putting aside the question of what's veridical and "scientific". But the consistency I get and amount of "life coverage", means I can't really I say I live with a single "why is it like this?".

I'm staring down the path of reading the OBE/astral literature, and I'm pretty sure it's going to just add to this same overall portrait with the same "universal knowledge".

We could get into areas that possibly more problematic in terms of their veridical-trustworthiness, like past-life regression books like Michael Newton's, which I haven't read, but I feel confident they'll just keep adding to the same overall picture rather than present something completely different.

Maybe it depends on what you've read. Speaking for myself, there are quite a few books, NDEr Nanci Danison's books, Robert Schwartz's books of knowings through channeling and mediumship, NDEr Natalie Sudman's book, now Christian Sandburg's book (and interviews), Bob Olson's Answers about the Afterlife that compiles and brings together the knowledge from all the different interviewees he's had and his research into the areas (ADCs, NDEs, mediums, you name it), Tom Campbell's Big Toe, just to name those, and overall the answers are pretty similar and I'd say all of them give pretty clear direction about living life and why life on Earth is the way it is, and explain how that combines with "All Is Love" to use to those exact words.

So my experience is quite the opposite of yours. I have the sense that pretty much any question I have I have an answer to potentially. Of course this is putting aside the question of what's veridical and "scientific". But the consistency I get and amount of "life coverage", means I can't really I say I live with a single "why is it like this?".

I'm staring down the path of reading the OBE/astral literature, and I'm pretty sure it's going to just add to this same overall portrait with the same "universal knowledge".

We could get into areas that possibly more problematic in terms of their veridical-trustworthiness, like past-life regression books like Michael Newton's, which I haven't read, but I feel confident they'll just keep adding to the same overall picture rather than present something completely different.

Honest question -> What's the picture?

[Ninshub]

Honest question -> What's the picture?

I don't know that I can summarize that in a few paragraphs! I would like to, however, eventually make some kind of document for myself writing in point form, as concisely as possible, that picture.

I think if you read A Walk in the Physical pages 21 to 35 (the link lets you read for free all those pages) you get a big picture summary that I can't find any fault or inconsistencies with in terms of other "data".

On the topic of hellish NDEs you brought forth in a previous post, my take, again based on all those sources, is that like a lot of other NDEs, they represent at least to a large extent manifestations by the personality/soul that's not very far along the journey, definitely has not entered the Light, so that all of the incarnate turmoil and beliefs and cultural baggage is being projected. In some cases, like Howard Storm, they are also likely the result of feverish mind states where it's not even clear the soul has actually "left" the body.

I won't vouch for the truth for all of the details in the channelled Michael Teachings, but on their webpage I think this comment about NDEs in apt:

Near-death experiences, if not hallucinatory, do offer glimpses of the astral. Although, as the soul is still corded to the physical body, the visions get skewed with interpretations related to earth-based belief systems and expectations. More so, the vision lacks clarity and often assumes elements of fantasy and mysticism. This is no fault of the viewer. Unless otherwise trained, a soul still connected to the body tends to see the astral with a little distortion.

https://www.michaelteachings.com/afterlife.html

I have stayed out of this long and complex thread so far, but I thought I would add my tentative ideas about how reincarnation works.

First of all, I find it interesting that people enjoy reading (and writing) fictional dramas, watching plays, playing assorted multi-player games over the internet, imagining themselves as someone else (What would I do if I were Putin...?)and of course virtual reality. We also have dreams - even if we don't remember them well - including occasionally dreams within dreams. All this suggests that we are well used to the idea of narratives nested inside narratives. The narrative that we finish a life, back off into an underlying life, and then start another life seems remarkably close to life as we know it. All the supposed paradoxes of the meaning of self seem to be resolvable in real life.

A novelist will also break off her activities to do other things, feeling nothing strange when she restarts. She may even write two novels at the same time, or go back and revise an earlier part of a novel, or even write the chapters in a different order than that in which they should be read. A writer of detective stories may do some detailed plot planning before even starting to write the book.

All this makes me feel that philosophizing on the exact nature of reincarnation may not be super fruitful!

There is also reason to believe that the structure of time in the greater reality may be more complex - I have suggested that earthly matters run on one time axis, and spiritual activities out there might run on another - so that it might, for example make sense to imagine taking a life and optimising it.