Is the human self nonexistent?

[Ninshub]

Self-actualization still makes sense to me as an ideal, but having access now to the spiritual insights of experiencers, it makes sense to me appreciate that concept not just in terms of human self-actualization and to conceptualize that self (mine and others') as larger, beyond the current physical incarnation. Very much like what Typoz described here:

One of my own personal aims has long been to bring some of that larger self into this world, to recognise not just in an abstract sense but as a real practical thing, the greater aspect of myself and of all of us. This is the human condition, sometimes we struggle, other times we rejoice, and some of the time we may forget what we really are, feel ourselves to be smaller and less than we really are. When sometimes in an NDE a person encounters a great shining being, it may turn out to be just another deceased human, seen without limitations. So one of my goals is to recognise the magnificence that we already are, and to encourage others to bring it forth, here in this world.

[Laird]

If the unique to that life human self simply reincarnates, for each Earth life, afterward each time remaining temporarily in the afterlife and merging with the higher soul self [#1] prior to the next reincarnation, then you have a succession of different temporary human selves, with the only continuity formed by the persistent higher soul self which is the separate being that is accumulating experience and wisdom [#2a] and past unique human individualities, capsulized merely as memories not conscious sentient beings. But the human is not benefiting from this. This would be a great injustice to the human self - all the benefit of the blood sweat and tears of physical life going to the soul, not the human [#2b]. I didn't want to suggest that option, and don't think it can be the truth. But it is a logical possibility that needs to be eliminated by some greater perhaps intuitive wisdom.

Again, I don't understand why you make some of the claims you seem to make, in particular the three I've emboldened with numbered editing notes.

Re #1: Why would we expect to "merge" with the (hitherto separate) higher self between lives? Is there even any evidence that this actually happens?

Re #2a and #2b: Why, in any case, would we expect to lose our experience and wisdom to the higher self after each life? Why could it not remain a part of us, but simply veiled from (most of) us while we are incarnated?

Re #1: Why would we expect to "merge" with the (hitherto separate) higher self between lives? Is there even any evidence that this actually happens?

If this merging doesn't happen, how does the higher soul self grow from the infusion of the new experiences and struggles and knowledge of this newest incarnation?  And I guess here I have also just gone for the sake of argument with the common New Age notion, reinforced by Ron Scolastico's Guides' teachings, that in reality there is just one permanent Self - the high self or soul. If there were never any merging between lives, there would always be two beings - the current human self and the high soul self.

Re #2a and #2b: Why, in any case, would we expect to lose our experience and wisdom to the higher self after each life? Why could it not remain a part of us, but simply veiled from (most of) us while we are incarnated?

If all this experience and knowledge is just veiled from us it also certainly isn't available to allow us to avoid past mistakes - we know that from our human experience of having in each life to go through the same learning process again and again, overall a very inefficient process. In net practical effect there might just as well be no such vast store of information stored somewhere deep down in our being. I myself have never been aware of my immediately last (or any other) past life experiences and learnings so as to be able to avoid repeating mistakes. Again, it at least looks like there is in reincarnation no particular benefit to the human, but there definitely is to the soul.

That's really hard for me to imagine.

All I know right now is that I'm me.  Its a 1:1 thing.  Mix in these other "memories" of when I was a woman, or a child who died of an illness at 5 years of age, or a disturbed evil man and I don't know how I would think of all that as "experiences I've had".  The "I've" in that case wouldn't be me it seems.  It would be something, dare I say someone?, else.  Right?

Indeed.

[Ninshub]

If all this experience and knowledge is just veiled from us it also certainly isn't available to allow us to avoid past mistakes - we know that from our human experience of having in each life to go through the same learning process again and again, overall a very inefficient process. In net practical effect there might just as well be no such vast store of information stored somewhere deep down in our being. I myself have never been aware of my immediately last (or any other) past life experiences and learnings so as to be able to avoid repeating mistakes.

So I can understand what you're getting at here more precisely, do you have an example of a "mistake" that we would want to avoid making again?

So I can understand what you're getting at here more precisely, do you have an example of a "mistake" that we would want to avoid making again?

Just the tip of an iceberg: say, in the 5th grade bullying a nerdy boy and watching him retreat inside, it turning out that this and other bullyings caused some serious problems in him. Later greatly regretting this action, but no way to take it back. A little memory of being bullied in a past life would have helped.

[Laird]

If this merging doesn't happen, how does the higher soul self grow from the infusion of the new experiences and struggles and knowledge of this newest incarnation?

In the first place: Why would it even need to? It seems to be generally conceived of as a whole and complete teacher, not a student.

But in any case, why couldn't the recently-incarnated self's experiences, struggles, and knowledge, etc, simply be integrated into, or even just made available to, the "higher self" via some sort of telepathic or otherwise psychic/psi/paranormal means?

If all this experience and knowledge is just veiled from us it also certainly isn't available to allow us to avoid past mistakes - we know that from our human experience of having in each life to go through the same learning process again and again, overall a very inefficient process. In net practical effect there might just as well be no such vast store of information stored somewhere deep down in our being.

Perhaps so, but of what use is it to the higher self either, given that that being, apparently, on this view, never incarnates directly anyway?

[Ninshub]

Just the tip of an iceberg: say, in the 5th grade bullying a nerdy boy and watching him retreat inside, it turning out that this and other bullyings caused some serious problems in him. Later greatly regretting this action, but no way to take it back. A little memory of being bullied in a past life would have helped.

Good questions, and good answer. Some disconnected thoughts here, not to be perceived as an answer to do away with the questions or rationalize suffering but just speculating.

1- Your last sentence presumes you were bullied in a past life so that you would know how that feels. Of course we don't know that you experienced that in a past life, nor how many past lives (meaning lives incarnated on Earth) you've had or what they were about.

2- If the soul incarnating as the boy did so to integrate an emotional theme around suffering centering on the issues at play, in which you (probably not alone!) played a part, then your behavior, from that point of view, is hard to qualify as a "mistake". The soul may have selected that life precisely to address that theme. (Of course I'm not just inventing such scenarios out of thin air, but basing my views on what's experienced through various paranormal means, whether it's Christian Sundberg in his life-before-life memories, or the mediums and channels that Robert Schwartz interviewed, to identify but two sources).

3- More generally, I don't know to what extent soul/spiritual "wisdom" pertains to what humans conceive of as "mistakes". Your aim in incarnating on Earth would surely not be primarily to "get it right this time" and "not create more suffering" (unless coming in specifically to be a helper of some sort), but to learn and integrate themes of your own, to gain more spiritual power.

In the first place: Why would it even need to? It seems to be generally conceived of as a whole and complete teacher, not a student.
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Perhaps so, but of what use is it to the higher self either, given that that being, apparently, on this view, never incarnates directly anyway?

Rather than to be a teacher, it might simply want to maximize its wisdom and knowledge, in part by accumulating human experiences of a realm of limitations and suffering and joy, unavailable in the spiritual realms.

But in any case, why couldn't the recently-incarnated self's experiences, struggles, and knowledge, etc, simply be integrated into, or even just made available to, the "higher self" via some sort of telepathic or otherwise psychic/psi/paranormal means?

Good point.

Perhaps so, but of what use is it to the higher self either, given that that being, apparently, on this view, never incarnates directly anyway?

There may simply not be any learning going on?

Survival doesn't necessarily indicate anything meaningful is happening, though it seems a few NDEs may suggest the some entities have tried to set things up so that learning of some sort occurs. (I don't take the message from most channeling as seriously, so I'm ignoring that side of things.)

But not all of us may be eligible for that particular track, assuming it exists.