A major but biased new paper on consciousness

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But I don't think academic acceptance of discussing something like NDEs will immediately lead to mass suicide. If nothing else, no one seems to know where they will end up in the afterlife.

In her book The Big Book of NDEs, on this topic PMH Atwater points to this book by Klimo and Heath (2006):
Suicide: What Really Happens in the Afterlife?

This provocative study explores what happens to those who commit suicide. Drawing on communications from the spirits of more than 100 'successful' suicides, it offers an intriguing look at what the dead themselves say about suicide, its repercussions, and their experiences in the afterlife. Bringing together the channeled messages of three types of suicide—traditional suicide, assisted suicide, and the suicide mass murder adopted by terrorists—the book covers a wide range of topics, including why people commit suicide, what it is like to cross over, adjustment problems, what suicides would say to those left behind, and what they would tell others thinking of taking their own lives. Additionally, the book conveys powerful messages from suicide bombers, warning potential terrorists of the serious karmic consequences that await them. For anyone contemplating suicide or euthanasia, the book offers profound, sometimes unsettling, insight into the ramifications of these acts.

[url=https://www.amazon.com/Suicide-What-Really-Happens-Afterlife/dp/1556436211/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2EZSQF3R80QFN&keywords=suicide+what+really+happens+in+the+afterlife&qid=1662915727&sprefix=suicide+what+realy+%2Caps%2C270&sr=8-4][/url]

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According to Shushan's The Next World, Kenneth Ring claimed suicide attempters who have NDEs are actually less likely to have life-reviews...but this was a publication in 1980:

Ring, K. (1980). Life at Death: A Scientific Investigation of the Near-Death Experience. New York: Coward, McCann, and Geohegan.

I'd have to look for more up-to-date sources to see if this holds, but perhaps you know whether this has been shown to be false?

In the same book, Atwater mentions Ring's work and says those NDEs were usually peaceful but lacking the complexity and depth of other NDEs (p. 73). She says Ring's work was duplicated by other researchers, "except of late" (her book is from 2007). She doesn't go into the sources for the newer understanding, but mentions likely more suicide attempters are now telling their stories, and their NDEs can involve both hellish scenarios and heavenly scenes and life reviews. She quotes one account (p. 75) from Stephanie Johnston:

I was given a life review: I was not only shown what my life had been, but what it would mean, from this day forth, if I were not there.

PMH Atwater, The Big Book of Near Death Experiences, 2007, Hampton Roads, p. 75.

That reminded me a bit of the film It's a Wonderful Life where George has thoughts of suicide and then an angel shows him how poorer life would have been if he hadn't been there.

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She also says of people who've had NDEs, that less than 4% of the accounts in her own database (3000 adults) did try to commit suicide later, because they found life here too tough by comparison. She says 21% in her database of child experiencers (277 cases) attempted suicide later (within 12 to 15 years later). (p. 76-78).

Of course we're talking about people here who've had NDEs and have an actual "otherwordly" experience to compare this life to, and not just hearing and learning about NDEs.

I'd have to look for more up-to-date sources to see if this holds, but perhaps you know whether this has been shown to be false?

I can't remember, Sci, tbh. I was possibly the first person in my country (UK) to read Life at death because I went to the library and ordered it from America (USA) as soon as it was published. I also bought a copy myself a little later but I gave it away. 

I personally do not believe that suicides end up in some horrible place. I think they go to where everyone else does and I've seen many reports which seem to indicate that is the case. I suspect (but of course it's only my speculation) that the horrible experiences (the ones that are horrible that is) reported by suicides are only so because they want them to go back. But obviously when they can't, what would the point be of torturing them for a mistake? 

We don't have enough data yet, whatever.

Nope, sorry. But I think I get where you are at.

Veridical experiences pinpointing some exact time are first. So a memory that shows a true timeline that they couldn't have otherwise known. Which makes it a psi phenomena memory, which is what I have been talking about the whole time. A brain memory would require the brain to be intact.
 
In psi phenomena, there is never necessarily any matching time function that we could use as any comparison to time in our current condition. 
I'm not sure why people think this OBE experience is exempt from all other psi phenomena experiences, or somehow different or special. From what I can gather from the evidence, it is a psi phenomena, and these rarely, if ever, are explained by the brain, time, or any of our common physics methods.
So why the trouble putting it where it belongs, as psi phenomena?

The events experienced could have happened anytime, and are still experienced as now to the subject. 
Not that it matters to the NDE experience itself. Or that it really matters except that NDE memory can just as well be clairvoyant, why not? You see what I mean?
We don't know for sure how or why these happen, they are psi, so that makes the assumption that it is somehow brain related irrelevant to the experience. Unless people are now claiming that all psi phenomena has to be caused by, initiated by, controlled by, the brain. Which is something I feel is very wrong.

It might be real to those who just accept that everything psi is functioning in some normal physical mode. Time and space and our brains are the center of the universe and explain all... if you get where that logic takes you.

But we are dealing with psi phenomena, and psi phenomena is rarely about this time and space.
So, assume time can be running at the same "speed", why not? This is still a plausible option in psi phenomena.

Funny how they want to use the brain as a measure of evidence, then toss that out and switch to impossible phenomena as real evidence, while they claim that psi phenomena doesn't exist.

We can consider this as data or proof of a timeline without this changing anything about how I see the OBE or memory for this NDE. 
Let's apply the ability to repeat a timeline as memory, as the evidence of an Earth timeline, no problem.

I have not said that awareness can't function without the brain. 
I have actually supplied evidence of awareness without a functional brain, to include glimpses into my own psi phenomena, and Terminal Lucidity.

I am not claiming that the OBE is always time travel. Even if OBE have been, can be, have been, can be. 
We can drop that for discussion. The brain was dead, and at no point did this OBE supply forward or backward data, fine.

I am not claiming that the OBE is anything but an OBE.
I am saying that we have plenty of OBE without NDE. I am claiming these are not special to NDE only. These are some of the very basics of psi phenomena.

We seem to be stuck in something similar to proof / not proof using the wrong set of variables. At least to me they are the wrong set.

Mainly, I think you might be more interested in whether the brain was still exhibiting brainwaves as the only real evidence. While avoiding how the experience is possible without brainwaves, or the psi component.

In other words, how can you have an OBE when the brain is dead, and if you can, this proves awareness exists beyond the death of the brain. 

And then the problem I see is science trying to take this a step further, claiming that the brain is the only proof of awareness, no brain, no existence. 

If you can still somehow function and remember, even on a psi phenomena level, it is proof of life after death. When it is simply proof that they must be wrong about life: Like where awareness resides, what it really is, and that the brain is a container / tool and not the giver of life and death.

We have no way of proving what any altered state is. We have evidence and information. Thus, we don't know what type of life or existence pure psi is.

They base the whole thing on the concept that awareness in the brain, and life, is "usually" accompanied by these brainwaves (plus other functions).
OMG, the psi phenomena and awareness continue after the brain stops! And I go.. duh?

So, in order to properly discuss this, as I've mentioned before, people could try to approach it from my psi phenomena point of view, where all the psi phenomena known to science is existing, does exist, no doubts (that we have evidence for). 

To me, it was never just using the brain, or brainwaves in this case. as the only proof that life or consciousness exist. I find that silly.
My body is rarely functional when I am in the middle of psi phenomena, lol.

To me, all of these psi phenomena things function just fine while I'm alive, and we see they are still functioning after the brain stops. It has nothing to do with the timeline, memory, etc. It has to do with altered states, psi phenonema, twilight zone... and it likely proves that these functions are not in and of the actual brain itself. That is likely all they have shown. We are not just a brain, and psi phenomena continue after that stops, so we are the phenomena, and not the brain. Life or living, being alive, is not whether the brain functions. The brain function is our bubble in this place that we use. If that is stopped, how long can we hold on here without this bubble, etc.

What I said is, I don't know how long awareness continues, and in what manner, after the body continues to die. None of us do at this point, and we can't make assumptions based on these experiences. We hope we can, and that this is evidence, but we don't know for sure, beyond any doubt, hundred percent. To make a case that says you are, is simply not science. It is assuming. All we have is a psi phenomena, which is the same psi phenomena I have while alive.

What I can do, is show that these psi experiences are there while alive, as altered states of awareness. 
An altered state of awareness continues on for a time after death, showing they are likely much more than our brain or body. Still not impressive. We see Tulpas and other partial life forms can do that.

What this momentary survival means is not clear. To believe otherwise makes it a religion, not a science, at best a hypothesis.

I can hope it means that since I live in altered states on a regular basis, and if something lives on after the brain shuts down, then I can hope that this means I already live and work in what survives.

I get the sense that you are very troubled about something that you are trying to work out. Maybe it would be better to discuss the problems you have, rather than try to couch them in terms of an academic discussion. Remember though that while I am sure people here want to help if possible, we are in no way trained counsellors - not is it our aim to provide comforting answers such as a priest might.

Clearly nothing in life can be 100% certain. Science itself is not able to supply 100% certainty, though maths can presumably do this: 2+2=4 with 100% certainty.

I agree with that, too. The problem is with NDE's in particular (as we all know) is that there's no model for 'spirits' or 'souls' or 'separate consciousness', however we care to label it. These academics are well aware it's happening. They'll talk about it in the pub (I know they do because my oldest friend is one) but because of it's 'model-less' nature, they publicly bracket it as supernatural or a matter of faith. If they do address it scientifically, it's always from a brain based explanation. 

Parnia is trying to bring it into the mainstream, insisting that it's simply an as yet undiscovered scientific entity and as such should given due funding and attention to reveal it's nature. And it should be, but will it ? Will they listen to Parnia if he gets the evidence ? Charlote Martial and her colleagues are now saying that you're not dead until you're irretrievably dead, hence the patients that Parnia is studying didn't really die. Therefore, they didn't come back from death at all so they can't tell us anything out of the ordinary or particulary important to science. The absurdity of this is laughable but sadly so predictable.      

Kicking materialism out or altering it with the addition of something else is going to be a monumental task on a par with booting out Marxism which is another falsehood and dead end. But such is life.

Studying-death-and-near-death-experiences-requires-neuroscientific-expertise.pdf (researchgate.net)

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I think, unfortunately, that NDEs may just inherently and fundamentally elude scientific methods of investigation as to their true nature. 

First of all, of course they are not duplicatable in the laboratory, forcing investigators to use extremely inefficient monitoring methods waiting for spontaneous occurrences, as in Parnia's AWARE study. And where the experimental "subjects", since they are putatively out of body during dire bodily trauma, are inherently very poorly motivated, if at all, to follow the experimental protocols.  

Secondly, they are in the area of the paranormal, where the researchers themselves can unknowingly affect the results due to their own biases and desires and fears, etc., a phenomenon known as experimenter effect. This automatically prevents "scientific" experimentation using the standard scientific method from giving valid results. It may still be concluded from these methods that there is something anomalous going on, but its true nature appears to be fundamentally obscured by the basic nature of what it is trying to discern. 

Thirdly, perhaps worst of all it has been noticed that there is something about the paranormal that seems to actively resist being poked and prodded and attempted to be forced to reveal itself. Almost as if the "powers that be" do not intend mankind to obtain full scientific and analytical confirmation of ultimately spiritual truths of this world and the next.

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Thirdly, perhaps worst of all it has been noticed that there is something about the paranormal that seems to actively resist being poked and prodded and attempted to be forced to reveal itself. Almost as if the "powers that be" do not intend mankind to obtain full scientific and analytical confirmation of ultimately spiritual truths of this world and the next.

Listening to a lot of Christian Sundberg (who has pre-birth memories for those reading this who don't know his name) interviews this week, that relates to how he talks about the "veil" that we take on when we "incarnate". He explains how we do this because the contrast is so immense between the physical life on Earth and the higher realms, that we would not be able to stand this life if we were unveiled, through feeling that contrast. The homesickness would be too great. (He says he still feels veiled himself even though he has some of those memories, and he is glad for it otherwise he too would find it unbearable.)

Which brings us back, funnily/sadly enough, to the topic discussed here of NDErs who commit or attempt suicide. Obviously they've tasted "home" and the homesickness is so great, especially if their lives are terribly shitty here, that that must be a tough thing to resist. Especially if you've just had a "taste" of "home" and not gotten enough knowledge of why we're "here" and its importance.

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I think, unfortunately, that NDEs may just inherently and fundamentally elude scientific methods of investigation as to their true nature. 

First of all, of course they are not duplicatable in the laboratory, forcing investigators to use extremely inefficient monitoring methods waiting for spontaneous occurrences, as in Parnia's AWARE study. And where the experimental "subjects", since they are putatively out of body during dire bodily trauma, are inherently very poorly motivated, if at all, to follow the experimental protocols.  

Secondly, they are in the area of the paranormal, where the researchers themselves can unknowingly affect the results due to their own biases and desires and fears, etc., a phenomenon known as experimenter effect. This automatically prevents "scientific" experimentation using the standard scientific method from giving valid results. It may still be concluded from these methods that there is something anomalous going on, but its true nature appears to be fundamentally obscured by the basic nature of what it is trying to discern. 

Thirdly, perhaps worst of all it has been noticed that there is something about the paranormal that seems to actively resist being poked and prodded and attempted to be forced to reveal itself. Almost as if the "powers that be" do not intend mankind to obtain full scientific and analytical confirmation of ultimately spiritual truths of this world and the next.

Can't disagree with any/much of that and even if I did, they're still reasonable points. The last paragraph is certainly something that I feel to be true, even though it's completely unscientific. 

(Just in the NDE field) Sartori's Patient 10 has an out of body experience and surveys the scene perfectly whilst in a coma, things that he could not have seen, but does not look on top of the monitor (of course there's no reason why he would have particularly but I guess she was hoping the bright colour would catch any disembodied "eyes") and misses the target. 

Sceptics say, there you go, he didn't see >it< so his report is worthless. Cynical, dishonest treatment of really hard to get data. And no allowances made for difficulty.  

Parnia spends years chasing thousands of cardiac arrests and only two of them actually have the (OBE) experience he's looking for. Both of those not in research areas and one of them is too ill to talk about it in depth. Sceptics give it the thumbs down even though one patient described everything perfectly while he was dead which should be incredibly interesting scientifically, but is practically ignored. 

Next...

The problem is with NDE's in particular (as we all know) is that there's no model for 'spirits' or 'souls' or 'separate consciousness', however we care to label it. These academics are well aware it's happening. They'll talk about it in the pub (I know they do because my oldest friend is one) but because of it's 'model-less' nature, they publicly bracket it as supernatural or a matter of faith. If they do address it scientifically, it's always from a brain based explanation.     

Kicking materialism out or altering it with the addition of something else is going to be a monumental task on a par with booting out Marxism which is another falsehood and dead end. But such is life.

Studying-death-and-near-death-experiences-requires-neuroscientific-expertise.pdf (researchgate.net)

I can't agree more.  A model of interacting processes is essential for configuring the measurable variables so that they yield products/outcomes.  And these products and outcomes become the basis for empirical or semi-empirical confirmation.

Kicking materialism out - or altering it - is fruitless.  First, because it is useful as a method!!!!!!   Second, because it has empirical products and predictable outcomes.  The road to success is to include material science/physics in the model and show how it response to mind.

Therefore, the claim is that materialism is not complete.  (there is already solid opinion that this is true.)

Materialism works great -- as a method -- if one is looking for and electrical short in equipment.  Not really worth a damn, as a method if it is a programming issue.  An expert in information technology can help, because she will present methodological responses that address where the failure is occurring, in its correct environment.    

Physicalism is very weak as a philosophy.  Incomplete - as a science methodology.  Recognizing information and meaning as a working patterned environment for research methods is critical.  Science can rethink how its products and outcomes realize change in the physical environment, specifically.  Mind as agent with informational actions that are causal - is an idea whose time has come.  rediscovered  always been there   is just science.

I don't even know if this is the right thread for this, if it's not please feel free to move it. Charlotte Martial from the Liege coma science group (Belgium) composed this paper in response to the Netflicks documentary "Surviving Death". I'm puzzled as to why she would actually do this, it's a bit odd in itself, but it does indicate that they are fully aware of the literature. 

She's a neuroscientist. So why is she getting her facts wrong. One example being the ineffectiveness of EEG to rule out deep brain activity (which they are inferring may be responsible for NDE's). We've been through this before and I don't want to have to reference her neuroscience colleagues who have told us that during cardiac arrest the brain stem is not functioning, we're all aware of it by now. There are a number of inaccurate statements and then she says this which is actually tip toeing into heresy for her.    

 I would like to stress that I do not exclude here the possibility  that  experiencers  do  report  actual  real-life-based  events happening in the(eir)  surrounding(s) during their NDE, but I rather  remind (you) that convincing empirical evidence  of  this  hypothesis  is currently lacking. It  is worth noting that if actual real-life-based events are confirmed, this will have important  implications  in  the  consciousness  field  and  this  will  notably corroborate the existing empirical literature showing that unresponsiveness does  not  equal  unconsciousness 

(PDF) Near-death experiences in the public debate: A scientific perspective (researchgate.net)