The soul, suffering, healing, learning, and spirituality [Night Shift split]

Thanks again for the thoughtful response.

I guess I have just one remaining arrow in my "quiver", the last-ditch option of bringing up an extreme but reasonably likely hypothetical nitty gritty real world example of a brief and hellish life that had no conceivable meaning or purpose such as you have so eloquently described.

Consider this: what about a baby born into a poverty stricken starving family in some hellhole of an African war zone country, this child in addition to a very unfortunate time and place of birth also having eventually lethal birth defects. All these very negative factors combine to inevitably cause this child to die of disease and starvation at a very early age, before he/she had a fully developed human psyche, Virtually all that this child experienced was suffering with no understanding whatsoever of any meanings and purposes to his short and miserable existence.

Not only this, but the parents of this unfortunate child were killed in the fighting shortly after the birth, so that they also accumulated no "learning from adversity".

This very bad outcome was certainly predictable by the soul prior to conception, since it was very likely due to the existing physical circumstances, and could have been avoided in the choices made by the soul for the time and place and parental selection of the future incarnation.

Various variations of this sort of very unfortunate and tragic story must really actually happen many times in various bad places and times. 

How would you rationalize these quite possible in the real world horror stories with your various otherwise plausible spiritual insights?

Yes, I recall an US Air Force veteran once saying that the idea people have soulmates is ridiculous because it implies some poor child ending up disabled due to a landmine was either random or part of the same plan as one finding their romantic partner.

For myself I cannot help but be a bit dismissive of the idea that there is some greater plan at work. One can believe in Survival and still accept reality has a great deal of Chaos if not Evil in it. From what I can tell Creation suffers from either an absentee or at best an earnest but incapable Land Lord...

Thanks again for the thoughtful response.

I guess I have just one remaining arrow in my "quiver", the last-ditch option of bringing up an extreme but reasonably likely hypothetical nitty gritty real world example of a brief and hellish life that had no conceivable meaning or purpose such as you have so eloquently described.

Consider this: what about a baby born into a poverty stricken starving family in some hellhole of an African war zone country, this child in addition to a very unfortunate time and place of birth also having eventually lethal birth defects. All these very negative factors combine to inevitably cause this child to die of disease and starvation at a very early age, before he/she had a fully developed human psyche, Virtually all that this child experienced was suffering with no understanding whatsoever of any meanings and purposes to his short and miserable existence.

Not only this, but the parents of this unfortunate child were killed in the fighting shortly after the birth, so that they also accumulated no "learning from adversity".

This very bad outcome was certainly predictable by the soul prior to conception, since it was very likely due to the existing physical circumstances, and could have been avoided in the choices made by the soul for the time and place and parental selection of the future incarnation.

Various variations of this sort of very unfortunate and tragic story must really actually happen many times in various bad places and times. 

How would you rationalize these quite possible in the real world horror stories with your various otherwise plausible spiritual insights?

I think this is the most difficult to overcome argument, a forced confrontation with the stubborn real existence of the worst sort of experiences that human life actually sometimes has to deal with.
 
It occurs to me that there logically are several possible answers attempting to rationalize this worst case real world horror story example with the "human personality is one with his/her soul and all is good" theory. Food for thought. Options that come to my mind at least include, in order of increasing unattractiveness and increasing unlikelihood:

1)  The last resort argument: there is in fact a reassuring "all is good" answer, but it is beyond human understanding. This of course requires either a considerable act of faith or a very strong intuition to entertain.

2)  There is an element of randomness or chance (the "luck of the draw") in the incarnation process which has not been communicated psychically to humans because it would hamper spiritual progress. Like everything in this world, the reincarnation process itself has various flaws from the human standpoint, perhaps the result of the original designer(s) having inevitably to make tradeoffs. There is ultimate recompense or balancing out of the resultant meaningless suffering.
 
3)  Suggestion (2) above except there is no balancing out or making good of this great negative experience.

4)  Various beings can make mistakes in this process and that's that.

5)  In such a case as the horror story example the incarnated being is not a human soul and the rules don't apply to it.

6)  There is no valid rationalization. The theory that "the human personality is one with his/her soul and all is good" is itself a great deception on the part of the powers that be. The truth is very much less pleasant.

Yes, I recall an US Air Force veteran once saying that the idea people have soulmates is ridiculous because it implies some poor child ending up disabled due to a landmine was either random or part of the same plan as one finding their romantic partner.

For myself I cannot help but be a bit dismissive of the idea that there is some greater plan at work. One can believe in Survival and still accept reality has a great deal of Chaos if not Evil in it. From what I can tell Creation suffers from either an absentee or at best an earnest but incapable Land Lord...

Couldn't it be like a paradox? I know, it sounds like a cop out from one perspective. What about the views from and nde or the spiritual masters who see the perfection in all experience. I like the metaphor of the child enjoying an ice cream cone. When it falls to the ground the childs world is shattered but from the adults position it's a teaching moment.

Couldn't it be like a paradox? I know, it sounds like a cop out from one perspective. What about the views from and nde or the spiritual masters who see the perfection in all experience. I like the metaphor of the child enjoying an ice cream cone. When it falls to the ground the childs world is shattered but from the adults position it's a teaching moment.

I think the historical record of NDEs doesn't quite paint such a clear picture. It would be interesting to examine the rise in NDEs claiming reality is a learning experience and the rise in New Age as a movement...

Thanks again for the thoughtful response.

I guess I have just one remaining arrow in my "quiver", the last-ditch option of bringing up an extreme but reasonably likely hypothetical nitty gritty real world example of a brief and hellish life that had no conceivable meaning or purpose such as you have so eloquently described.

Consider this: what about a baby born into a poverty stricken starving family in some hellhole of an African war zone country, this child in addition to a very unfortunate time and place of birth also having eventually lethal birth defects. All these very negative factors combine to inevitably cause this child to die of disease and starvation at a very early age, before he/she had a fully developed human psyche, Virtually all that this child experienced was suffering with no understanding whatsoever of any meanings and purposes to his short and miserable existence.

Not only this, but the parents of this unfortunate child were killed in the fighting shortly after the birth, so that they also accumulated no "learning from adversity".

This very bad outcome was certainly predictable by the soul prior to conception, since it was very likely due to the existing physical circumstances, and could have been avoided in the choices made by the soul for the time and place and parental selection of the future incarnation.

Various variations of this sort of very unfortunate and tragic story must really actually happen many times in various bad places and times. 

How would you rationalize these quite possible in the real world horror stories with your various otherwise plausible spiritual insights?

Maybe the problem is that the only way in which such extremely negative lives could be avoided, would be if something intervened in a rather visible way - for example stopping all conception in situations of that sort. That would possibly reveal the whole spiritual structure in an unfortunate way.

Also, if you imagine this thing from the point of view of the over-soul (I'm never quite sure of the nomenclature here) perhaps he goes around to his friends saying, "see you soon, I have a really rough incarnation coming up next!". To which they all reply, "I can imagine - we have all had those!"

More to the point, there is an awful tendency to blend what we think should happen into something that is, in effect, a science - the study of what happens before and after death.

Whatever belief you have, the fact is that there is a terrible amount of suffering in the real world, and the only way to remove all blame is to assume that everything is governed by random laws - i.e. materialism.

David

Maybe the problem is that the only way in which such extremely negative lives could be avoided, would be if something intervened in a rather visible way - for example stopping all conception in situations of that sort. That would possibly reveal the whole spiritual structure in an unfortunate way.

Also, if you imagine this thing from the point of view of the over-soul (I'm never quite sure of the nomenclature here) perhaps he goes around to his friends saying, "see  you soon, I have a really rough incarnation coming up next!". To which they all reply, "I can imagine - we have all had those!"

More to the point, there is an awful tendency to blend what we think should happen into something that is, in effect, a science - the study of what happens before and after death.

Whatever belief you have, the fact is that there is a terrible amount of suffering in the real world, and the only way to remove all blame is to assume that everything is governed by random laws - i.e. materialism.

David

David,

That was a thoughtful post.  The idea that some of "high" spiritual knowledge is secret - to protect it from minds not ready for it - is ancient and was used for evil by humans throughout much of religious history.  I believe most strongly that at this time it is permitted to know the inner workings of reality and afterlife!  Even if human spiritual evolution it has not always been out in the open.

There was/is/will be a terrible of amount of suffering at all times in the physical environment.  Physical suffering is personally terrible.  But it need not pain the soul.  Physical comfort is not a spiritual goal.  Or is physical perfection, just look to the example of Helen Keller.

Healing the suffering of all souls is the primary reported goal of "angels/oversouls".  Pain seems to be covered in the "system" and not contrary to it.  People are specifically taught through spirituality and sacred texts to overcome both kinds of suffering.

Blame is not involved, as it is simply not in the toolbox of angels!!!!!  Blame has no part in the system of spiritually leading to the evolution of souls toward peace and acceptance.

Yes, I recall an US Air Force veteran once saying that the idea people have soulmates is ridiculous because it implies some poor child ending up disabled due to a landmine was either random or part of the same plan as one finding their romantic partner.

For myself I cannot help but be a bit dismissive of the idea that there is some greater plan at work. One can believe in Survival and still accept reality has a great deal of Chaos if not Evil in it. From what I can tell Creation suffers from either an absentee or at best an earnest but incapable Land Lord...

The problem of evil has been around a long time.  During most of history the outcome of parsing the issue gives feedback that "god", as understood in our ambient cultures cannot be resolved with suffering as part of the environment.  As if it's the "job" of god to pamper us.  Rather than a God who actively fights evil that human minds produce, while still leaving us out freedom to choose. 
(note the Stoics had a resolution long ago.)

 Marcus uses ‘providence or atoms’ in the Meditations to drive out an impious attitude:

"Are you discontented with the part you have been assigned in the whole? Recall the alternatives: providence or atoms, and how many are the demonstrations, that the cosmos is a city. "(iv.3.2)

 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marcus-aurelius/

Soulmates. as currently defined are fitted into a romance narrative, as the context.  In a probabilistic environment soulmates may find each other not for the happiness of their romance - but because of the unique chance to better the spiritual results for all.  The poor child dying young may still be nurtured by angels and develop their personal meanings in a heavenly environment.  There is no loss of love and belonging around the child in this system care of god and his child care program.

The problem of evil has been around a long time.  During most of history the outcome of parsing the issue gives feedback that "god", as understood in our ambient cultures cannot be resolved with suffering as part of the environment.  As if it's the "job" of god to pamper us.  Rather than a God who actively fights evil that human minds produce, while still leaving us out freedom to choose. 
(note the Stoics had a resolution long ago.)  https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marcus-aurelius/

Soulmates. as currently defined are fitted into a romance narrative, as the context.  In a probabilistic environment soulmates may find each other not for the happiness of their romance - but because of the unique chance to better the spiritual results for all.  The poor child dying young may still be nurtured by angels and develop their personal meanings in a heavenly environment.  There is no loss of love and belonging around the child in this system care of god and his child care program.

I think this is a fine interpretation to some degree. But can we really excuse an entity with full Omni descriptions (All Good, All Knowing, All Powerful) simply by noting the freedom to choose? There could still be choices - like there are for the well off in more fortunate parts of the world - without the vast amount of suffering everyone else endures...though it seems even that 1% has had cases of great evil done to vulnerable family?

It seems to me there's no way to really square the Omni-God with all the observed Evil in the world - especially that done to children - so we either have to remove some Omni Power/Knowledge and accept a Limited God or accept that God is "Limited" in Goodness. Maybe "God" is more like akin to a Ground of Being that is disinterested in the suffering of entities or has a desire to see narratives that bring novelty to Its own existence.

I use "God" here as a sort of placeholder term, though we could posit the Fine Tuner(s) of this universe were quite limited in scope and ability. This could be a reconciliation with the evidence of Design and the fact our universe is largely a vast void where even the interaction with spirits doesn't seem to suggest any grander order...

This does leave some issues given the varied mystic visions and NDE/CORT claims that suggest there is fact a plan to the world. OTOH we have to look at the NDE/CORT claims that suggest something more limited in scope or divine plans that seem quite opposed to the more modern sensibilities in our time. To me it seems there are benevolent entities, including dead loved ones, but these are more limited beings who've carved spaces that we can call "Heaven", "Bardo", "Hell" even if none are a Universal destination...think of David Lynch's set up of the Black Lodge and the White Lodge in Manichean conflict...

Thanks again for the thoughtful response.

I guess I have just one remaining arrow in my "quiver", the last-ditch option of bringing up an extreme but reasonably likely hypothetical nitty gritty real world example of a brief and hellish life that had no conceivable meaning or purpose such as you have so eloquently described.

Consider this: what about a baby born into a poverty stricken starving family in some hellhole of an African war zone country, this child in addition to a very unfortunate time and place of birth also having eventually lethal birth defects. All these very negative factors combine to inevitably cause this child to die of disease and starvation at a very early age, before he/she had a fully developed human psyche, Virtually all that this child experienced was suffering with no understanding whatsoever of any meanings and purposes to his short and miserable existence.

Not only this, but the parents of this unfortunate child were killed in the fighting shortly after the birth, so that they also accumulated no "learning from adversity".

This very bad outcome was certainly predictable by the soul prior to conception, since it was very likely due to the existing physical circumstances, and could have been avoided in the choices made by the soul for the time and place and parental selection of the future incarnation.

Various variations of this sort of very unfortunate and tragic story must really actually happen many times in various bad places and times. 

How would you rationalize these quite possible in the real world horror stories with your various otherwise plausible spiritual insights?

It hasn't much to do with rationalization so much as understanding the reasoning of a soul that would choose such circumstances ~ not all souls go in with experience of what such a situation is like. Maybe they've never experienced it before. Some souls don't know where to start, so they'll choose any situation to get some idea of what it is like. If the life is a short one, then they might at least learn what not to do next time, and choose more favourable circumstances. Maybe some souls were on the opposite side of the conflict and felt some desire to understand the pain and suffering they were witnessing, even if those desires were only soul-based. Many souls aren't always ready to deal with the difficulty of such lives, so they might choose to end it early.

Remember that not all insights come during incarnation, but many come only after we've left our body behind and have returned to being a soul, able to see things in the context of other knowledge our soul has from every lifetime it has lived. So, learning can still certainly occur.

I recall one lifetime where I was a poor person in medieval England... I'd committed many crimes just to get by, but was heading into territory that might have ended miserably for me, so my soul decided to cut the life short, perhaps because in prior lives I'd experienced similar things. So I ended up dying young in that life, before it could get worse. That's as much as my intuition will give me right now.

Sorry for a few days of no response. Have been doing a lot of energy work and shadow work, so to speak, heh.