Opposing Hell

If you don’t feel this is the right venue for the discussion you want then why not simply find another that’s more conducive to the discussion you want? I can’t see why that means you’d have to leave the forum but of course it’s a matter for you. There’s at least one forum that I visit periodically but I no longer post on because it’s impossible to have a balanced discussion on psi or related topics and people asking questions get shouted down by the resident skeptics/atheists. Nevertheless there’s occasionally an interesting discussion going on.

It may just be a matter of the way words are used or interpreted, I don't think there is any need for Brian to actually leave this forum. Though possibly he may spend time elsewhere, whether online or offline, that is just a matter of distributing one's energies or efforts in differing proportions, at different times. The latter is something we all do every day as a matter of course.

It may just be a matter of the way words are used or interpreted, I don't think there is any need for Brian to actually leave this forum. Though possibly he may spend time elsewhere, whether online or offline, that is just a matter of distributing one's energies or efforts in differing proportions, at different times. The latter is something we all do every day as a matter of course.

Well quite. To me “leave the forum” means cease to be a member, maybe Brian doesn’t mean that.

In theory I agree with you but I am getting more and more tired mentally these days and just looking for calm from life's troubles.  I was never much good at debating anyway.

Very old joke coming here as a reply. (apologies, bloody awful) A guy goes to see his doctor, lifts his arm up in the air. "Doctor, it hurts when I do this" The doctor looked at him and replied, "Well don't do it then!"

I’m sure you’d agree that discussing things can be a good way to learn. I’m also sure you’ve considered the points I try to make below.

I can fully understand that arguments can be very tiring and that there are times we just don’t have the energy to participate, or perhaps we don’t like the degree of freedom moderators allow (either too much or too little), or we get frustrated that posters take the topic off track,  however trying to limit discussion, as long as it’s polite, is destined to failure IMO without drastic intervention by the site owner or moderator.

I suppose in some ways forums sometimes attempt it with topics that are for proponents and which forbid skeptics unless they’re genuinely joining in with the spirit of the thread, however I’d have thought  threads devoted to discussion of specifically Christian theology had better venues open to them. I’d suspect that the majority of active posters here were not particular pro organised religion. They’ll either ignore the discussion (which I think wouldn’t be a problem for you but which might make the content somewhat “thin”) or be triggered by it and make posts you’re not comfortable with.

If you don’t feel this is the right venue for the discussion you want then why not simply find another that’s more conducive to the discussion you want? I can’t see why that means you’d have to leave the forum but of course it’s a matter for you. There’s at least one forum that I visit periodically but I no longer post on because it’s impossible to have a balanced discussion on psi or related topics and people asking questions get shouted down by the resident skeptics/atheists. Nevertheless there’s occasionally an interesting discussion going on.

I doubt there are many, if any, open forums like this where we can simply demand or expect that posters stick to what we want to talk about in the way we want to talk about it. I suspect it is possible here however you’re probably going to have to spend a bit of time redirecting (or attempting to) the discussion patiently, and trying to put out brush fires that emerge between other posters on the thread that don’t contribute to the discussion you want. The people who have passionate views on a subject or related to it are the ones most likely to contribute I’d think. Understandably some of these passionate views may be somewhat provocative and not on-topic. 

If I want to restrict discussion on a topic or simply express my opinion without challenge, then I’d start a blog, or join a different forum where it’s likely people will be interested in exploring the topic.

Maybe I was under the illusion that tackling the subject of Hell at least , might give people a slightly better view of Christianity for what it is worth.  I'll finish it anyway - somebody might benefit from it.  Like you on your subject, I find it impossible to have a balanced discussion whenever Christianity is mentioned because people seem to have made their minds up and won't look any further.  If I remember rightly, Gabriel was put off by much the same.  I have no further interest in discussing psi because I have observed that nothing gets solved and with few exceptions, nobody adjusts their position.  New evidence is just handwaved away if it challenges the proponents status quo - the very thing you all accuse sceptics of.  The forum is rapidly becoming a sceptic-bashing fest, which I don't see as productive.  So you are either a psi proponent or you are a schmuck.  No room for questioning that.  If I finish the PDF I will post it for what it is worth but other than that I won't be logging in again.  I may stop by from time to time to see if anything has moved but I doubt it.  It's just a transactional game of "waiting for rigor mortis to set in" with added elements of "Now I've Got You You Son Of A Bitch"

Maybe I was under the illusion that tackling the subject of Hell at least , might give people a slightly better view of Christianity for what it is worth.  I'll finish it anyway - somebody might benefit from it.  Like you on your subject, I find it impossible to have a balanced discussion whenever Christianity is mentioned because people seem to have made their minds up and won't look any further.  If I remember rightly, Gabriel was put off by much the same.  I have no further interest in discussing psi because I have observed that nothing gets solved and with few exceptions, nobody adjusts their position.  New evidence is just handwaved away if it challenges the proponents status quo - the very thing you all accuse sceptics of.  The forum is rapidly becoming a sceptic-bashing fest, which I don't see as productive.  So you are either a psi proponent or you are a schmuck.  No room for questioning that.  If I finish the PDF I will post it for what it is worth but other than that I won't be logging in again.  I may stop by from time to time to see if anything has moved but I doubt it.  It's just a transactional game of "waiting for rigor mortis to set in" with added elements of "Now I've Got You You Son Of A Bitch"

It might give someone a better view if they’re interested. I’d be very impressed if you were saying anything new on the subject (as an ex Christian myself). Why anyone on here should be particularly interested in Christianity or theological discussion I have no idea but some may be.

I think your generalisation about proponents “hand waving away” is, frankly, wrong. It may be correct in specific instances but generally I don’t see many people on here waving differences of opinion away. They usually counter with evidence to the contrary or argue their corner. I’ve learned a lot from discussions on here including with sceptics. 

Genuine scepticism or challenges seem to be welcome. People do get tired of having to repeat the same explanations to uninformed people who haven’t done much research before asserting as facts, things that have long since been refuted or have no real basis in reality. I don’t think that’s unexpected or in any way wrong. 

I also don’t think there’s much if any evidence of people seriously suggesting genuine sceptics are shmucks. I don’t see genuine scepticism being trashed either. 

So in short I’m not sure what you expected from this forum but I feel you’ve mischaracterised it.

New evidence is just handwaved away if it challenges the proponents status quo - the very thing you all accuse sceptics of.

Curious what this evidence is?

Edit: You could mark the title "Mod Plus" and then ask the mods to keep digressions to something of a minimum. That way you can center your discussion about Christianity and Hell if the mods agree to the designation.

As an additional note, I don’t mean to be unkind in my comments above but I really have no idea what Brian is expecting from this sort of forum, that he isn’t getting.

Curious what this evidence is?

Indeed, so would I.

On the one hand, we have Steve001 who is not shy to post some materialist tidbit for us to consider. The trouble is that what, for him, seems to be a slam dunk is usually quite easy to shelve alongside many other similar challenges to the proponent view. Just because something has previously been shown to be lacking or unpersuasive doesn't mean that it has now been dismissed out of hand. 

On the other hand, we have the likes of Omni who insists on posting sceptical hot topics for us to demolish. Again, most of these have been addressed in countless discussions. I don't think I can remember anything that would count as "new evidence" for a long time.

Lastly, Sciborg himself is not shy to share new topics which can often be challenging to the proponent view and which sometimes prompt discussion of how that fits (or not) with a particular worldview. It should be remembered and emphasised that not all proponent worldviews are identical. We don't follow a scripture. We don't have an ideology, a belief system or a faith. We are not all on the same philosophical platform. Some are idealists, some dualists, some are even borderline atheists with a proviso that something strange is going on with anomalies such as the Near Death Experience.

I have finally started work on my PDF "Opposing Hell."  I don't know if I will ever finish it, and I can't promise anything but I will keep you all updated in this thread.  Don't hold your breath!

Sounds interesting, I look forward to reading more. 

I quite like St Isaac of Syria on hell:

And I say that those who are tormented in hell are struck by the scourge of love! And how bitter and cruel is this torment of love! For those who feel that they have sinned against love, experience a torment far worse than any torment that can cause fear; the grief that strikes the heart over sins against love is more fearsome than any possible punishment. Let no one think that sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love…  And so, my thinking is that the torment of hell is remorse.

I wanted to ask you if you think that belief in ‘Jesus’ death’ story is really the way to eternal life?

If you remember that Christ is seen as being the literal incarnation of existence's originating and organising principles, the Logos, then it's quite easy to see how one could say that it is only through Christ that eternal life can be achieved, ie. through aligning yourself with the divine principles behind creation.

And perhaps the best way to see the significance of the Nativity and the Crucifixion is to realise that they portray a divinity that, while being ultimately transcendent, is relatable and personal, can reach out to humanity, understand them, share their troubles, and that, in turn, humanity can have some personal experience of. Similarly, God's act of taking a full and human incarnation impregnates every level of existence and experience (birth, life, death, et cetera) with divine potential, and the selflessness and humility imbodied in the act of incarnation shows the way to divine ascent.

That's the idea, anyway.

Am I making sense?

That's the idea, anyway.

Am I making sense?

Yeah, in some ways, but it’s still too conditional for my liking. 

Am I seeing things right? 

If I’m right that Christians aren’t fans of reincarnation, in one short life on earth we are supposed to work out that this one condition out of billions is the only one that counts? The only way we can get to heaven? (Believing the ‘Jesus thing’ that I described above)

Not to mention questions like...What about babies that die? What about members of tribes that never even heard of Jesus?etc

As I said before, I’m well open to ideas of God, and Jesus being an ‘advanced being’, much closer to God than I am (I am unwilling to name any other person) but I’m too aware of how man’s propaganda has warped our views as it is. What makes the bible special to this day, can you say that it’s really ‘the word of God’?