Some recent lucid dream research looks to be apropos for this subject, and provide additional clues as to the plan or organization behind the sleep phenomenon and to how the mind/body philosophy controversy might figure in. The investigators were able to monitor the subject's lucid dreaming "actions" and enable the subjects to move their legs while during the lucid dreaming they were moving their dream legs, and confirm that the activity data was during lucid dreaming by using instrumentation that detected REM sleep and presumably the electromyography equipment.
https://www.iflscience.com/lucid-dreamer...laim-72863
Quote:"A research team with REMspace, a California-based startup, has been exploring the potential benefits of manipulating the power of lucid dreaming. Existing research has suggested that lucid dreaming could be used to help with various things, such as improving mood and decreasing depression, to addressing phobias, improving motor skills, and preventing nightmares. The researchers at REMspace even posit that mastery of lucid dreaming could be harnessed to “solve work or personal tasks while sleeping.”
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In a laboratory study, the team wanted to know whether it was possible for a lucid dreamer to control real-life objects from their dream state.
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The REMspace team worked with five experienced lucid dreamers in a laboratory experiment where each individual was connected to specialized electromyography (EMG) sensors, which measure muscle and nerve responses.
Through this equipment, participants were able to move their legs while dreaming, which served as a signal to move a virtual avatar (a Cybertruck in this instance) on a computer screen. The dreamers could also move their hands to turn the car in order to avoid oncoming obstacles, which were communicated to them by sending light through the participant’s eyes.
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All five of the participants were able to consciously control the virtual Tesla vehicle while asleep when their brains were in the REM sleep phase (which was confirmed by polysomnography).
During the experiment, the dreamers were able to control the virtual avatar for periods of time ranging from several seconds to several minutes. This is believed to be the first time two-way control has been established through an experiment."
A dualist mind/body philosophy interpretation of this: evidently, during lucid dreaming the inner consciousness or spirit is not totally enmeshed in the brain's neural structures and totally "switched off" by the "housekeeping" processing. It is not completely damped. It can resume its core subjective conscious awareness of a sort in a self-manufactured "physical" environment, all while the brain's neurological systems proceed with their "housekeeping" activities.
The long list of mind functions overhauled or cleaned up by the brain during REM sleep (from post #4) is as follows:
Quote:"Sharply increases activity in brain regions for visual, motor, memories of experiences, and especially emotions
Deactivates edges of prefrontal cortex, switching off logical thought in the control region
Solidifies language acquisition
Recalibrates the ability to determine the meaning of facial expressions and body language
Works toward resolving emotional reactions and states, reducing hypersensitivity
Works to solve problems
Engages in creativity, e.g., by associating stored memories not obviously related"
This can be interpreted as showing that while embodied the functional subsystems of the physical/mental brain/mind interactional interface are periodically cleaned up and refurbished during REM sleep and also to a limited degree during lucid dream REM sleep. Evidently, during lucid dreaming, suppression is released of the deepest core function of subjective conscious awareness and agency, and the limited self is allowed to have limited physical control via the motor nerve interface.
There is a lot of surmising and jumping to conclusions going on here. Can we return to what we can actually know please? This thread is about what the brain does when asleep, we have a spirituality thread for people's personal beliefs.
(2024-02-27, 12:48 PM)Brian Wrote: There is a lot of surmising and jumping to conclusions going on here. Can we return to what we can actually know please? This thread is about what the brain does when asleep, we have a spirituality thread for people's personal beliefs.
The problem is we don't know much at all - we just have hints and conjectures. For example, because certain computer language systems use a process called 'garbage collection' to retrieve memory from time to time, some people take it almost gospel that the brain does something similar, and that that accounts for some or all of the time we spend asleep. Like most, I rarely remember my dreams but if I wake suddenly I am aware that I've just made an abrupt shift some other activity.
David
(This post was last modified: 2024-02-27, 05:08 PM by David001. Edited 1 time in total.)
(2024-02-27, 05:06 PM)David001 Wrote: The problem is we don't know much at all - we just have hints and conjectures. For example, because certain computer language systems use a process called 'garbage collection' to retrieve memory from time to time, some people take it almost gospel that the brain does something similar, and that that accounts for some or all of the time we spend asleep. Like most, I rarely remember my dreams but if I wake suddenly I am aware that I've just made an abrupt shift some other activity.
David
I agree the actual knowledge of our consciousness is very scant, though I would also agree with Brian that perhaps it would be best to spin off a new thread to discuss the more speculative aspects relating to incarnating souls.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2024-02-27, 12:48 PM)Brian Wrote: There is a lot of surmising and jumping to conclusions going on here. Can we return to what we can actually know please? This thread is about what the brain does when asleep, we have a spirituality thread for people's personal beliefs.
Well of course, like everyone, you are free to spin off a thread of any sort. I think you are looking at a situation in which the traditional paradigm has nothing left to give.
I don't think we are discussing 'personal beliefs' so much as discussing a mass of beliefs - shared by many - together with the evidence that the science of consciousness is in need of a paradigm shift.
Science does undergo paradigm shifts, you know, so why not now?
David
(This post was last modified: 2024-02-28, 05:24 PM by David001. Edited 1 time in total.)
@ Ninshub @ Laird - I actually do want to join this discussion about the nature of reality, the soul, and IMO the clear absence of any Omni-God in Creation...
...but it does seem like the thread discussing these things should be split from this thread?
Don't get me wrong, this is a very great, even beautiful conversation - but just one that seems divorced from the original topic! 
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2024-03-03, 07:14 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: @Ninshub @Laird - I actually do want to join this discussion about the nature of reality, the soul, and IMO the clear absence of any Omni-God in Creation...
...but it does seem like the thread discussing these things should be split from this thread?
Don't get me wrong, this is a very great, even beautiful conversation - but just one that seems divorced from the original topic!
No worries, Sci, I'm happy to split this thread at your request, especially given that you're the thread-starter.
It seems to me that it could be divided into three distinct and relatively coherent threads:
- "Night Shift: The Brain’s Extraordinary Work While Asleep" (the original topic), comprising posts #1 through #10 plus #71 (and then the meta posts regarding topicality and the potential splitting of the thread, leaving them in this original thread: #159, #160, #161, #162, and the post to which I'm responding, #184, plus this response itself).
- "Dualism versus (neutral) monism, consciousness, quantum mechanics, and the simulation hypothesis", comprising posts #11 through #124 plus #126?, #127?, #135?, #136?, and #139.
- "The soul, suffering, healing, learning, and spirituality", comprising posts #125 onwards except for those mentioned above.
Am I correct in understanding that you are proposing only that the third of those potential threads be split out, and that you're comfortable not splitting out the second potential thread, instead leaving its posts where they are? If so, simply let me know whether you disagree with my assessment of which posts to include/exclude, especially those I've appended with question marks, and I'll do this for you.
(This post was last modified: 2024-03-03, 09:19 PM by Laird. Edited 1 time in total.)
(2024-03-03, 09:17 PM)Laird Wrote: No worries, Sci, I'm happy to split this thread at your request, especially given that you're the thread-starter.
It seems to me that it could be divided into three distinct and relatively coherent threads:
- "Night Shift: The Brain’s Extraordinary Work While Asleep" (the original topic), comprising posts #1 through #10 plus #71 (and then the meta posts regarding topicality and the potential splitting of the thread, leaving them in this original thread: #159, #160, #161, #162, and the post to which I'm responding, #184, plus this response itself).
- "Dualism versus (neutral) monism, consciousness, quantum mechanics, and the simulation hypothesis", comprising posts #11 through #124 plus #126?, #127?, #135?, #136?, and #139.
- "The soul, suffering, healing, learning, and spirituality", comprising posts #125 onwards except for those mentioned above.
Am I correct in understanding that you are proposing only that the third of those potential threads be split out, and that you're comfortable not splitting out the second potential thread, instead leaving its posts where they are? If so, simply let me know whether you disagree with my assessment of which posts to include/exclude, especially those I've appended with question marks, and I'll do this for you.
I think three separate threads works - thanks!
That should provide a path for each conversation 
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2024-03-03, 09:26 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: I think three separate threads works - thanks!
That should provide a path for each conversation
No worries. Done. Here are the two split threads:
Dualism versus (neutral) monism, consciousness, quantum mechanics [Night Shift split]
The soul, suffering, healing, learning, and spirituality [Night Shift split]
Any issues, let me know.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
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