(2021-10-05, 02:30 PM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]That's a good one Tim, Mr Bützberger's experience is interesting. Though I'm not sure the surgeon would necessarily be pleased to hear that not only is he a great surgeon, he used to be a pretty good butcher too!
No, I suspect you're right there, Typoz
His revelation (about that) of course has no evidential value whatsoever. And he could also be making up his NDE, come to that. I think that's unlikely, though.
It's just a pity he wasn't able to see something unique that occurred during the operation that he couldn't possibly have seen, because then the sceptics would surely be satisfied that something remarkable was going on. Hang on a minute, no, they wouldn't wouldn't they.
(The patient was shown every single instrument they were going to use before the operation)....NEXT !
(2021-10-06, 11:57 AM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]No, I suspect you're right there, Typoz His revelation (about that) of course has no evidential value whatsoever. And he could also be making up his NDE, come to that. I think that's unlikely, though.
It's just a pity he wasn't able to see something unique that occurred during the operation that he couldn't possibly have seen, because then the sceptics would surely be satisfied that something remarkable was going on. Hang on a minute, no, they wouldn't wouldn't they.
(The patient was shown every single instrument they were going to use before the operation)....NEXT !
Actually, I was inserting some of my own biases in that comment. I don't think we were told what the surgeon's exact reaction was, nor how it may have affected him afterwards. Possibly he went home and reflected on it and it sort of rang true, who knows?
Regarding the veridical information, the patient said he saw the entire operation (or words to that effect), didn't he. Maybe if he had been questioned in more detail, there could have been some facts there that he couldn't have known by ordinary means. But maybe it just didn't seem important. After all, when one is considering whether to remain in the 'afterlife' realms or return to the body and continue this life, that is the pressing matter, as well as other related thoughts. Keeping careful notes of details of an operation and writing them down afterwards would not be high on the list of priorities, would it.
I tend to think that the gathering of veridical information is very much a matter of chance, in that a patient might just happen to notice something. They are not actively trying to observe and note such things.
(2021-10-06, 11:57 AM)tim Wrote: [ -> ](The patient was shown every single instrument they were going to use before the operation)....NEXT !
Jesus why would they do that? No thanks lol
(2021-10-07, 05:10 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]Jesus why would they do that? No thanks lol
I'm pretty sure Tim was being sarcastic. (And caricaturing/accurately describing the typical sceptical responses to veridical information in NDE cases.)
(2021-10-08, 03:38 PM)Obiwan Wrote: [ -> ]Haha you got me there.
Interesting story after.
No worries, Obiwan. Just to add, Keith Augustine's 'debunking' (attempted anyway) of the Pam Reynolds case involved this line of pursuit. Pam was (obviously) shown the bone saw before the operation. Woerlee also allowed for the possibility of this even though it is absolute nonsense and simply did not and does not happen.
Dr Spetzler :
This here is the instrument that we are going to use to saw open your head and take the bone flap off your eye socket, Pam. We thought you'd like to see it for no particular reason.
Pam Reynolds :
Gulp, did you really need to do that ?
(2021-10-08, 12:33 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]Here's another.
Just to get some context to share with readers, I asked tim privately where this story came from, and he told me that it's "
the report of an Italian man (originally in Italian) in the comments section of an NDE video which I copied years ago. I honestly can't remember which video it was now but if it comes back to me, I'll let you know. I had a brief exchange requesting more details (as I remember) and he responded very positively but he never got back to me a second time."
I've deleted the post above. The interest was appreciated thanks to all.
I found this an interesting NDE account. Nothing very complicated, but an interesting part when Samira, like so many others, asks to remain in that other realm with the light, instead of returning to her body.
The Near Death Experience of Samira Henning
A different take on that same problem. The person having the NDE refuses to return to the physical body. The real-life background to this is sketched in outline by Ms. Romy Kramell - there is clearly something very dangerous happening but we have to fill in the blanks for ourselves.