Why do you believe, advocates/skeptics?

If you have a particular case you think is a slam dunk, I'd love to hear about it.  That said, I'm not interested in getting shouted down by ideologues (got enough of that on skeptiko), so I'll tread lightly when it comes to responding and potentially questioning the "obvious proof of psi" from whichever anecdote. As much as this forum represents a distinct improvement from skeptiko, I still think there is outright disdain for materialists (not that I am one, but I respect them) here from a few of the members.

Berkelon

Ah I didn't mean that there was some psychic or medium I could give you, I was just curious if you had tried to have your own experiences. There's an interesting reluctance to trying, even for myself I find it quite difficult to keep to the kind of reasonable discipline for something like lucid dreaming.

As for disdain for materialists, that's a faith whose members have often if not largely earned that scorn IMO. I suppose that might go in another thread though.

Ah I didn't mean that there was some psychic or medium I could give you, I was just curious if you had tried to have your own experiences. There's an interesting reluctance to trying, even for myself I find it quite difficult to keep to the kind of reasonable discipline for something like lucid dreaming.

As for disdain for materialists, that's a faith whose members have often if not largely earned that scorn IMO. I suppose that might go in another thread though.

I tried lucid dreaming for about two weeks once, I think the approach was to draw a red dot on your palm before bed each night, and then if you saw the red dot in your dream, it would remind you that you're dreaming...didn't work for me but I'm sure I gave up much too early. I have had about 10 or so spontaneous lucid dreams in my life, though. Never thought of them as being related to psi, but they were interesting and exciting, for sure!

I tried lucid dreaming for about two weeks once, I think the approach was to draw a red dot on your palm before bed each night, and then if you saw the red dot in your dream, it would remind you that you're dreaming...didn't work for me but I'm sure I gave up much too early. I have had about 10 or so spontaneous lucid dreams in my life, though. Never thought of them as being related to psi, but they were interesting and exciting, for sure!

I've heard Psi in dreaming is one of the most achievable things one can do, why I also attempt it. I've barely [been] able to achieve anything close to lucidity.

I've once attended a psychometry reading that was rather accurate, obviously not enough to convince anyone who wasn't in our adventuring part[y]...it's interesting b/c even I find myself trying to rationalize what happened...

... it's interesting b/c even I find myself trying to rationalize what happened...

I think we all do that. The few really convincing episodes in my own life have invariably been followed by my rational side looking for loopholes or, failing that, starting to deny the experience happened at all. I remember that David Fontana observed the same thing when he started investigating paranormal phenomena - he describes it in his book, "Is There an Afterlife?". I'll type out the passage because it is not something I can share by other means.

During the Cardiff investigation I would spend the day in John's workshop, observe a range of phenomena [that] could not be accounted for by normal means, and leave for home convinced that what I had seen was genuine. Yet on the journey home doubts would already begin to arise. My rational mind would start to argue that such things can't really happen. A natural explanation must be in there somewhere, if only I could find it.

... Over the following days the doubts would multiply. Even if I failed to spot the natural explanation, surely others would do so, to the detriment of any standing I might have as a serious scientist. It is all too easy for hardened critics to make even the best fieldwork sound ridiculous and hardened critics have brought this form of ridicule to a fine art, prizing it above any real attempt to get at the truth of things.

I think we all do that. The few really convincing episodes in my own life have invariably been followed by my rational side looking for loopholes or, failing that, starting to deny the experience happened at all. I remember that David Fontana observed the same thing when he started investigating paranormal phenomena - he describes it in his book, "Is There an Afterlife?". I'll type out the passage because it is not something I can share by other means.

Or to quote Fox Mulder in the first episode of the X Files, "I'm not crazy Scully, I have the same doubts you do"  It's human nature to want to find a more "realistic" explanation and that is why I find it hard to believe the accusation that people are jumping to conclusions when they say they have experienced strange stuff.  I think people genuinely try to explain it in materialistic terms but just find such an explanation elusive until time passes and the details are forgotten.

I've thought about responding to this question for a while since I'll probably get blasted for this but here it goes:

I'm someone who believes at times, at other times doesn't, depending on my confidence and mental health, so to speak. I sympathize with berkelon in that nothing has ever fully 'convinced' me, not even my own experiences and those of family, either due to self-doubts or attempts at rationalising, which I realise can sometimes be self-defeating if I don't have self-confidence! 

My interest in parapsychology is more focused on things like life after death than anything else due to death anxiety. I did get interested in it when I was younger and enjoyed reading or watching about about the paranormal, but didn't realise it was such a taboo topic so many people are cynical towards until around secondary school. 

Being on the Internet doesn't help either, since there's a lot of misinformation and anonymous people pretending to be experts on any given field/subject out there. There's also plenty of hive-minded people online (as I'm sure you've seen) who are the biggest victims to cognitive bias and the Dunning-Krüger effect. Plenty of keyboard warriors who will harass, bully, ridicule and mock others for their beliefs and feel justified in doing so because they think they're omniscient on the Internet and behind a screen. When it comes to things like alternative medicines I can understand that, but simply believing that materialism/physicalism is false? Attacking someone over that is unwarranted. Such an opinion/belief does no harm at all imo.

Currently I'm a bit more confident in believing since joining this forum/database ultimately. I'm still hoping for more personal experiences, especially after this COVID-19 crisis alleviates. 

Emailing people like Jan Holden, Ed Kelly and Bruce Greyson though has certainly helped, but I can't spend my time pestering them for reassurance.

Reading the talk about peoples tendency to rationalize away personal experiences no matter how powerful or strange they may have been was very interesting to  read in light of the recent events I detailed near the end of this post. Reading back at my trail of rationalisation is sort of bizarre. Granted I think I also have a few other reasons for it beyond whether it simply happened or not at all.

I've thought about responding to this question for a while since I'll probably get blasted for this but here it goes:

I'm someone who believes at times, at other times doesn't, depending on my confidence and mental health, so to speak. I sympathize with berkelon in that nothing has ever fully 'convinced' me, not even my own experiences and those of family, either due to self-doubts or attempts at rationalising, which I realise can sometimes be self-defeating if I don't have self-confidence! 

My interest in parapsychology is more focused on things like life after death than anything else due to death anxiety. I did get interested in it when I was younger and enjoyed reading or watching about about the paranormal, but didn't realise it was such a taboo topic so many people are cynical towards until around secondary school. 

Being on the Internet doesn't help either, since there's a lot of misinformation and anonymous people pretending to be experts on any given field/subject out there. There's also plenty of hive-minded people online (as I'm sure you've seen) who are the biggest victims to cognitive bias and the Dunning-Krüger effect. Plenty of keyboard warriors who will harass, bully, ridicule and mock others for their beliefs and feel justified in doing so because they think they're omniscient on the Internet and behind a screen. When it comes to things like alternative medicines I can understand that, but simply believing that materialism/physicalism is false? Attacking someone over that is unwarranted. Such an opinion/belief does no harm at all imo.

Currently I'm a bit more confident in believing since joining this forum/database ultimately. I'm still hoping for more personal experiences, especially after this COVID-19 crisis alleviates. 

Emailing people like Jan Holden, Ed Kelly and Bruce Greyson though has certainly helped, but I can't spend my time pestering them for reassurance.

I relate to this a bit Omni, it's kind of what I've gone through. I still have a lot of doubt about paranormal claims, though it's an emphasis on doubt and not skepticism. The evidence is there, reliable and convincing, but it's easy to have that shaken when enough people say it's not legitimate. I feel like that doubt is healthy, but at the same time can be a showing that a person just can't hold opinions and flip flop all over the place. Like you, I've found it pretty reasurring after finding a forum like this, and places like psi encylopedia, just because you can reliably find good legitimate psi related info in a single spot that you can refer to when someone makes a claim.

As for death anxiety, I went through that pretty strongly during my late teens, it's just what happens. Like I said in my original post, I started on the materialist side so I thought of thinking about an afterlife as a weakness, better to have the stiff upper lip and face death with some strength and not believe in silly immortality that's just for cowards. I still believe that in a way, I think, in a rare bit of wisdom from Michael Shermer, people should live like there is no afterlife. Because, really, we don't live in the afterlife, we live right here, ain't gonna be taxes or the next videogame console in whatever comes after, so have to live your life in a fulfilling and satisfying way and make peace with yourself as is, and then if there's an afterlife it's a bonus.

That's why I don't fault atheists for saying that life has meaning without an afterlife, because it does, shouldn't bank on what comes next and rely on that. But then, of course as evidence shows, you could safely bet on their being an afterlife so that's good and the position should be defended. With respect to the evidence of course, and not with ideological, religious or biased backing. I don't wanna have a heaven beer with Hitler or some creepy uncle who was a little bit too handsy but if the evidence shows well it's fun and bliss for every soul who dies, well that's what it is.

As for existing online, you just have to find your places. Most regular people just don't have an opinion on PSI related topics and that extends in both directions. They don't care if its real and don't care to look so just listen to whatever person has said its false before and sit on that. There's of course just militant materialists or whatever but just ignore them, they are their own spot, like new agers curing cancer with crystals or psi enthusiasts thinking they're talking to their cats with mind powers they've read about but don't actually have. Just sticking to a nice middle ground like here is good, where you interpret things critically with just a tinge of personal interest.

I relate to this a bit Omni, it's kind of what I've gone through. I still have a lot of doubt about paranormal claims, though it's an emphasis on doubt and not skepticism. The evidence is there, reliable and convincing, but it's easy to have that shaken when enough people say it's not legitimate. I feel like that doubt is healthy, but at the same time can be a showing that a person just can't hold opinions and flip flop all over the place. Like you, I've found it pretty reasurring after finding a forum like this, and places like psi encylopedia, just because you can reliably find good legitimate psi related info in a single spot that you can refer to when someone makes a claim.

As for death anxiety, I went through that pretty strongly during my late teens, it's just what happens. Like I said in my original post, I started on the materialist side so I thought of thinking about an afterlife as a weakness, better to have the stiff upper lip and face death with some strength and not believe in silly immortality that's just for cowards. I still believe that in a way, I think, in a rare bit of wisdom from Michael Shermer, people should live like there is no afterlife. Because, really, we don't live in the afterlife, we live right here, ain't gonna be taxes or the next videogame console in whatever comes after, so have to live your life in a fulfilling and satisfying way and make peace with yourself as is, and then if there's an afterlife it's a bonus.

That's why I don't fault atheists for saying that life has meaning without an afterlife, because it does, shouldn't bank on what comes next and rely on that. But then, of course as evidence shows, you could safely bet on their being an afterlife so that's good and the position should be defended. With respect to the evidence of course, and not with ideological, religious or biased backing. I don't wanna have a heaven beer with Hitler or some creepy uncle who was a little bit too handsy but if the evidence shows well it's fun and bliss for every soul who dies, well that's what it is.

As for existing online, you just have to find your places. Most regular people just don't have an opinion on PSI related topics and that extends in both directions. They don't care if its real and don't care to look so just listen to whatever person has said its false before and sit on that. There's of course just militant materialists or whatever but just ignore them, they are their own spot, like new agers curing cancer with crystals or psi enthusiasts thinking they're talking to their cats with mind powers they've read about but don't actually have. Just sticking to a nice middle ground like here is good, where you interpret things critically with just a tinge of personal interest.

For me it's becoming apparent I just need to spend less time on the Internet worrying about or occasionally engaging with the more ignorant, cynical people. It is absolutely a relief that a place like this exists. Online, everyone seems to prefer things to be black and white, with no grey areas. Having mixed thoughts on a person or topic, particularly a controversial person or topic, can be very difficult online. However, I will say that the 'believers/proponents' have been nicer to me than the 'non-believers/skeptics'. I have spoken to former materialists/physicalists before though which shows that there are always people who can completely change their minds, often due to personal experiences, and unfortunately I haven't had that kind of assurance yet. 

Still, everyone online has an opinion on any topic regardless of whether or not they're informed about it. As I type this, I've seen comments on a post about Ricky Gervais' short take on euthanasia and death, and of course the religious spiritual bickering started in the comments over whether or not there's an afterlife or God or whatever. And the worst part? A large majority of the commenters were teenagers or very young adults. This was on Instagram where it's often easier to determine these things, but normally most here wouldn't waste their time engaging with immature young people who will just block you if you disagree with them for too long. Doesn't help that none of them even knew what physicalism/materialism was, or the difference between your brain and your consciousness, or that Gervais isn't an authority on theology or philosophy whatsoever. All I can do is hope that this content leaves me alone and I can learn to fully cope with it while hoping for that experience that convinces me.