Why do you believe, advocates/skeptics?

I don't think time is an illusion, but at the same time we also experience time in our unique human way. Imagine if there were no day night cycles. Everything was always bright. Imagine how much different just THAT would be to your concept of time. Remember even that years and days are just how our planets revolves, and how often it swings around a star. They're just abstract things used for measurement. A real timelessness of some kind of afterlife would be so smack bang removed from what we have now you wouldn't even be able to grasp it.

From a physicists point of view, the way we measure time in days or years are indeed arbitrary abstract things. They are not even consistent - little wobbles or perturbations caused by gravity or effects of tides and so on mean there are imperfections. Hence the choice of other standards such as the atomic clocks using oscillations of atoms instead.

But, from the point of view of almost every lifeform on this planet, both the day and the year are built-in to the very life of each creature, it is part of our nature. Indeed one of the great joys of life on this planet is to embrace and appreciate these things, whether it be the colours of autumn leaves, the crispness of fresh snow, or the first green shoots of spring and the flourishing in the heat and brightness of summer. Day and night, even the twice-daily ebb and flow of the tides, creatures build their very existence upon them. One could reasonably say life has evolved at every stage to include these things.

There are exceptions, the only ones which spring to mind are for example in the depths of the ocean away from the light, or in a heated volcanic pool where there is continuous energy available.

You're correct in saying that time experienced without any connection to these things would be very different. This is just one of the things which is disconcerting during an NDE, where perhaps a person describes lots of things happening, each of them individually identifiable and describable, but where it is not always possible to place them in sequence, it can seem like they all happen at once. Some NDEs describe living in some other realm for what seems like many years, what could be like a good portion of a lifetime. Then they return here to find a couple of minutes have passed. Strange indeed.

You're correct in saying that time experienced without any connection to these things would be very different. This is just one of the things which is disconcerting during an NDE, where perhaps a person describes lots of things happening, each of them individually identifiable and describable, but where it is not always possible to place them in sequence, it can seem like they all happen at once. Some NDEs describe living in some other realm for what seems like many years, what could be like a good portion of a lifetime. Then they return here to find a couple of minutes have passed. Strange indeed.

Exactly what I mean by my examples. Humans are so keenly in tune with our notion of time, which is of course good and beautiful and should be treasured. But to be suddenly yanked into something like timelessness, whether it's through a drug induced spiritual experience, or regular spiritual experience, or an NDE, really shows you how crazily jarring it is. If I wanted to wonder you can imagine why it might be hard for something like discarnates to talk via mediums when everything in an afterlife is so abstract and you're trying to come back to regular time.

But then I've always been into HP Lovecraft style cosmic weirdness so thinking about this kind of stuff isn't too off centre from that.

From a physicists point of view, the way we measure time in days or years are indeed arbitrary abstract things. They are not even consistent - little wobbles or perturbations caused by gravity or effects of tides and so on mean there are imperfections. Hence the choice of other standards such as the atomic clocks using oscillations of atoms instead.

But, from the point of view of almost every lifeform on this planet, both the day and the year are built-in to the very life of each creature, it is part of our nature. Indeed one of the great joys of life on this planet is to embrace and appreciate these things, whether it be the colours of autumn leaves, the crispness of fresh snow, or the first green shoots of spring and the flourishing in the heat and brightness of summer. Day and night, even the twice-daily ebb and flow of the tides, creatures build their very existence upon them. One could reasonably say life has evolved at every stage to include these things.

There are exceptions, the only ones which spring to mind are for example in the depths of the ocean away from the light, or in a heated volcanic pool where there is continuous energy available.

You're correct in saying that time experienced without any connection to these things would be very different. This is just one of the things which is disconcerting during an NDE, where perhaps a person describes lots of things happening, each of them individually identifiable and describable, but where it is not always possible to place them in sequence, it can seem like they all happen at once. Some NDEs describe living in some other realm for what seems like many years, what could be like a good portion of a lifetime. Then they return here to find a couple of minutes have passed. Strange indeed.

On the topic of time and more specifically "pace", I've always found something interesting.

We all know of science fiction stories/movies where a character find themselves in the world with time frozen.  They are able to move, think, act while everything around them is frozen at a moment in time.  This always got me to thinking, why do we experience time at a roughly consistent "pace"?  Meaning, if my mind was able to think faster, I could do more thinking in a day than I can now.  Likewise, movement and physical action has a "pace" to it.

We see it in the animal/plant world where organisms seem to have different pacing.  Why is that?  What controls that?

Its a bit of a rambling thought, but something I've always found interesting to ponder.

I thought it might be good to re iterate but if there's any skeptics in the forums that want to voice their opinions I encourage them to come and give their reasoning!

I specifically want this just to be a friendly thread of stating why's and how's, no debunking or debating evidence or points which I expect any important moderators to uphold. Let us know why you think what you think, I'm interested to know.

I thought it might be good to re iterate but if there's any skeptics in the forums that want to voice their opinions I encourage them to come and give their reasoning!

Most, if not all of them, have been & gone, some occasionally still post.

Some names of skeptics, if you want to read past threads on here and Skeptiko.

Steve001
Linda
Paul C. Agnotipoulos (?spelling)

I thought it might be good to re iterate but if there's any skeptics in the forums that want to voice their opinions I encourage them to come and give their reasoning!

I specifically want this just to be a friendly thread of stating why's and how's, no debunking or debating evidence or points which I expect any important moderators to uphold. Let us know why you think what you think, I'm interested to know.

You're very welcome to the forum, Smaw but I'm afraid you might be a little late to the party. We've been discussing these things now for many years and there isn't much that hasn't already been said. I personally don't want to go back over it again, some others might and that's fine.

Still, the forum is a good place to visit and say something about one of the subjects discussed here (or any subject, Stan ?), whatever it is you might want to say.

Most, if not all of them, have been & gone, some occasionally still post.

Some names of skeptics, if you want to read past threads on here and Skeptiko.

Steve001
Linda
Paul Agnostipou (?spelling)

I referred to Paul as  Paul Agnosticpoulos and he didn't like it. He isn't, he's an atheist, full stop.

Echoing Tim's comments, I'm sure I've expressed my self many times before, as to my views.

However, I'd have to respond to the wording in the title of this thread, "Why do you believe". I'm not really interested in belief. That's a characteristic which is of interest of course. But for me the question is more like, "What have you experienced?". When I talk of experiences, it is not appropriate to speak of belief, it is more a matter of fact or simply what is.

A couple of previous posts for reference:

https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-t...xperiences

https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-w...e-was-that

There is more of course, but eventually it shifts into a whole-life autobiography, something I don't feel inclined towards.

However, I'd have to respond to the wording in the title of this thread, "Why do you believe". I'm not really interested in belief. That's a characteristic which is of interest of course. But for me the question is more like, "What have you experienced?". When I talk of experiences, it is not appropriate to speak of belief, it is more a matter of fact or simply what is.

Well, if ‘experience’ is what it takes to know things for a ‘fact’ then I probably should never post here, either on the ‘hidden forums’ or anywhere else. The vast majority of what we might think we know is not through direct experience, but through learning, or propaganda - but definitely at least second hand. 

I have had one direct experience that I found very interesting, but is that all that you think really qualifies me ?

You're very welcome to the forum, Smaw but I'm afraid you might be a little late to the party. We've been discussing these things now for many years and there isn't much that hasn't already been said. I personally don't want to go back over it again, some others might and that's fine.

Still, the forum is a good place to visit and say something about one of the subjects discussed here (or any subject, Stan ?), whatever it is you might want to say.

That's perfectly fine! I've done some reading around the forum before signing up so had an idea where everyone was standing, but also felt like too that there was sometimes a lot of confusion between the advocate and skeptical positions and I felt like it might be good to have everyone be able to state their opinions flat in an even place, where nobody will be coming in tearing at each other's throats. That way it might lead to more eventful discussions in future. 

That and it's a nice reminder that regardless of what position we take we're all people too, and we've come to our positions through our own experiences and research, is not just us vs them.