Top 10 AI hype stories of 2018

No, but I'd say it's a more parsimonious explanation than that the radio is just a receiver.

I'm just saying that Ockham's Razor cuts both ways in this debate. And therefore so do arguments against just choosing the most parsimonious explanation.

But choosing ESP/precognition as the favoured explanation doesn't end the matter. It then raises a whole bucketload of additional questions, such as why someone who has shown no previous aptitude for or interest in ESP will suddenly manifest these traits at a time when the brain is non-functional. Or why a person might change their whole life, be transformed. A whole list of further questions ensue. A so-called parsimonious explanation suddenly looks horrendously convoluted and complex. Or simply inadequate to the task, it stops being an explanation at all.

But choosing ESP/precognition as the favoured explanation doesn't end the matter. It then raises a whole bucketload of additional questions, such as why someone who has shown no previous aptitude for or interest in ESP will suddenly manifest these traits at a time when the brain is non-functional. Or why a person might change their whole life, be transformed. A whole list of further questions ensue. A so-called parsimonious explanation suddenly looks horrendously convoluted and complex. Or simply inadequate to the task, it stops being an explanation at all.

That's what I don't like about these arguments. They boil down to differences of opinion about which explanation is more plausible. There's no way of resolving the differences of opinion empirically - apart from dying, and that's not much help to people who'd rather stay alive.

There's no way of resolving the differences of opinion empirically - apart from dying, and that's not much help to people who'd rather stay alive.

For now, but science might be making us better mystics as Kripal puts it.

In the present couldn't we compare experiences of ESP/Psi and how they compare in an experiential sense from the claim of being outside of one's physical body but observing the world?

For now, but science might be making us better mystics as Kripal puts it.

In the present couldn't we compare experiences of ESP/Psi and how they compare in an experiential sense from the claim of being outside of one's physical body but observing the world?

Probably we are getting a bit off-topic, but certainly I agree Out of Body Experiences seem relevant to the question about the relationship between mind and brain.

My problem there is that the evidence for veridical OBEs (at least induced ones) is sparse and weak:
https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-p...8#pid24058

It seems to me that an OBE is either what it seems to be - "being outside of one's physical body but observing the world" - or it's an illusion. If it is what it seems to be, it should be relatively easy for the observer to perceive something that's not accessible to the physical senses.

Probably we are getting a bit off-topic, but certainly I agree Out of Body Experiences seem relevant to the question about the relationship between mind and brain.

My problem there is that the evidence for veridical OBEs (at least induced ones) is sparse and weak:
https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-p...8#pid24058

It seems to me that an OBE is either what it seems to be - "being outside of one's physical body but observing the world" - or it's an illusion. If it is what it seems to be, it should be relatively easy for the observer to perceive something that's not accessible to the physical senses.

Ah this a bit different than what I meant. I was thinking the experience of an NDEr being outside their body, feeling that they are in fact separated from the body's time/space location but still gaining presumably veridical knowledge of the physical world.

And then compare that to what remote viewers and telepaths feel about how they get information.

My guess is that the actual experience differs in the way my looking at live video feed differs from me actually being at a location, but perhaps I'm wrong about that...

Ah this a bit different than what I meant. I was thinking the experience of an NDEr being outside their body, feeling that they are in fact separated from the body's time/space location but still gaining presumably veridical knowledge of the physical world.

And then compare that to what remote viewers and telepaths feel about how they get information.

My guess is that the actual experience differs in the way my looking at live video feed differs from me actually being at a location, but perhaps I'm wrong about that...

Isn't it better to look at the phenomenon that most closely resembles the NDE, and to investigate whether that is objectively real?

Isn't it better to look at the phenomenon that most closely resembles the NDE, and to investigate whether that is objectively real?

It is better to investigate the NDE. Not divert attention towards some other topic. The latter is the misdirection of the stage magician and results in error, not truth.

It is better to investigate the NDE. Not divert attention towards some other topic. The latter is the misdirection of the stage magician and results in error, not truth.

I think I'll stop discussing this now then.

Isn't it better to look at the phenomenon that most closely resembles the NDE, and to investigate whether that is objectively real?

OOBE research certainly has its place in the attempt to answer the NDE question, but I don't think we'll get the full story just by laboratory attempted OOBEs. I suspect the lab is among the worse places for Psi, which admittedly will make it a challenge for it to be given wider acceptance academically (but perhaps that isn't a bad thing).

What I'm curious about is the feeling of embodiment and/or presence. For example from what I've read of Psi experiences relating to clairvoyance the information comes to the person without a sense of actually being at the location, but I could be wrong about that? If I am correct this might be contrasted with the veridical information gained during an NDE where the person feels they are located if not in a soul/subtle-body th[e]n at least in the particular spatial-temporal location floating beyond their physical body.

I think I'll stop discussing this now then.

Ah that would be a shame...

I feel I should apologise for being somewhat antagonistic here in this thread.

There are a number of different topics and associated issues, and I've definitely been feeling a sense of frustration. Perhaps from my perspective these are old topics, but it almost feels like they are being broached for the first time. But then that can't be the case because the contributors here are all long-time members with wide experience.

Anyway, I will ease off a little, I've expressed my frustration, but I don't need to act as a disruptor or spoiler. Hopefully if there is more to be said, it can continue. I'll try not to keep butting in unless in a helpful way.

[I did compose a longish post yesterday on the nature of computing and how it might fit in to all of this, but I backed off from posting, again I don't know whether it was helpful or just me letting off steam.]