Psience Quest Interview No. 5: Graham Nicholls

Hi all! Hope everyone is well and I have brought a New Years gift - the interview with Graham Nicholls! 

I think it's a fascinating interview and I'm sure everyone will want to thank Graham for giving us his time. 




1. First question – can you tell us briefly about yourself, when you started to have OBE’s, how they affected you, how having them affected you, and just an outline of what you’ve been doing from when you started having them until today?

My first OBEs occurred spontaneously in 1987 when I was 12 years old. My memory is now quite vague about the conditions from which the experience arose, but I believe the experiences began from a relaxed waking state. If I am correct that I was in a relaxed waking state, this would be consistent with the 78% figure found by G. O. Gabbard and S. W. Twemlow in their study of OBEs in the general population during the same period.

Sometime in 1990 I first heard or read the term ‘Out-of-Body Experience’ and realised that was what had happened to me. I remember walking to James Street, near Oxford Street in central London hoping to find a book on the topic in one of the large bookshops. As it happened they did have a book called ‘Out-of-Body Experiences - A Handbook by Janet Lee Mitchell’, which basically set everything in motion for me. The book was mainly scientific in outlook, but did describe a basic technique. I decided to commit to a year of practice to achieve controlled OBEs.

After several months of OBE practice I initiated my first intentional OBE. From that point on the experiences came much easier and I explore all the esoteric and parapsychological information on the subject I could find. I also started working for Dr. Douglas Baker who was teaching astral projection in London at the time.

In the late 90s I started exploring areas like sensory deprivation, hypnosis, virtual reality and other technologies to help others have OBEs. This led to major exhibitions of my work in galleries around the world including my first solo show in Soho, New York City in 1999 and in 2004 a major virtual reality project at London’s Science Museum.

In 2008 I met Rupert Sheldrake and worked with him organising some experiments, as well as taking part in them. After that I continued my practice and began working on my first book that appeared in 2011 and my second in 2012. More recently my focus has been on working with The Rhine Research Center (US) as an educator, advisor and research subject. I have also been  working on a study with Patrizio Tressoldi and generally continuing my support of a scientific approach to understanding the OBE that does not exclude the veridical elements.

2. Can you tell us about some of your more striking or stand out OBE’s?

Well the ones that have stood out the most for me have been the ones that have challenged my understandings about the world or contained something veridical. So my shared death experience or my Soho precognitive OBE in 1999, or more recently my OBE to the arctic ocean. All of these experiences left a lasting impression on me and I feel are quite striking examples. 

3. What similarities/differences do your experiences have with those of other OBErs of who you are aware? What do you make of any inconsistencies/dissimilarities?

This is an interesting and important question, as I feel it highlights some of the work that still needs to be done on OBEs. We need to understand the qualities that make up different types of OBE. I tend to refer to veridically consistent OBEs, like my own, as Independent Consciousness Experiences (ICE), as this is a more accurate description of my experiences and those of others I have studied. I generally find my experiences are more consistent with those of NDE accounts, than with many of the other popular authors or accounts that I might come across. My thinking on this is that there are different forms of OBEs and those arising from dreams (which are popular currently) seem to be more subjective. I feel this is either because something of the dream state is still apparent once the OBE component begins, or that these experiences are not in-fact OBEs at all, but rather a form of dream (by which I mean they are fully internally generated). I do have a theory that OBEs could be the result of a combination of mental model and external data (much like our usual experience is), but I feel that the external or extrasensory foundation is what distinguishes an ICE.

4. Have you ever experienced, during an "OBE" or some other visionary state, the experience of becoming infinite (or at least numerous) souls or beings, individually and in their "totality" (ie. knowing all their "history", connections, relationships etc, despite their being "fictional" interior characters, ostensibly at least). Have you experienced any other unusual "OBEs" or visionary experiences that are in some way "unusual", and do not fit the linear, singular person perspective of "out-of-body" perceptions?

Yes, my experience of what the artist Alex Grey calls The Universal Mind Lattice. I will quote from my first book Avenues of the Human Spirit:

"I opened my eyes to a gleaming expanse of colour and light. The most beautiful imagery revealed itself in geometric streams of light and pattern, a sunset overflowing with rich turquoise and edged by delicate pink transformed into dancing rays like the charged particles of the northern lights. In every direction a new vision of natural beauty arose. As I looked deeper into the expanse I became aware that these colours and mists of energy were the result of consciousness all around me, like I was floating in a collective mind. In each moment I became more aware of exquisite points of light mixed within waves of colour and space. I felt that I could reach out and connect with anyone, anywhere. From the centre of the expanse rose a vast concentration of light; it was the source of all that was flowing around and it seemed to be drawing me closer to it. I felt like I was surrendering to the desire to connect with this endless sea of thought. As I touched the column of energy I rose up in a spiral of consciousness like I could think with a million minds at once. As if I was present in places all across the globe, all the emotions that characterise humanity phased in before dissolving away again. In that single moment I was consumed by the sense of endless interconnected minds. I saw the intricate lives of people across vast distances; I felt in the most tangible way the common humanity between people. No self, no separation, no now and no tomorrow. That was how I felt; accepted and totally free."

Since, that time I have had more such experiences of Monism or wholeness. I have had realisations through these perceptions that suggest many of the ways I used to divide life or ideas are simply illusory structures. The Aghori Sadhus of India would be a good example of this idea of trying to look beyond such illusions of division. This was most apparent in my life during what became a retreat in Sardinia in 2002. I spent 10 days in Zen meditation, before experiencing a shift that was without drama, but was as profound as it was simple.

5. Do you differentiate, and in what practical ways, between different varieties of "OBE", such as "etheric projection", OBE, astral projection, lucid dreams, remote viewing etc? If so - what is the practical differences between these experiences in relation to our ontological being or state of consciousness? Is it just the CONTENT of the experience which defines what label we ascribe to them, or what method or practice we use, or something more fundamentally "differential"? Further, is there some sort of objective or invariant structural hierarchy to these states of experience, in your opinion, and how do you personally frame that conceptually?

This is a huge question and I’m not sure I can fully address it here, but I will try to tease apart some of the most important elements. Firstly, yes, I certainly do differentiate between different expressions of consciousness and psi. Some of these terms are simply outdated in my view, like astral projection and etheric projection. They are based upon assumptions that an astral or etheric body exists, I don’t feel that we can realistically claim that. I say that based upon both the evidence addressing what people actually experience in an OBE and what we observe in veridical accounts. 

So if we start from the experiential we find that far fewer experience a secondary body of any form than is generally claimed in the esoteric and new age literature. For example, in recent research by Carlos Alvarado and Nancy Zingrone only 30% reported experiencing any kind of secondary body. If we then look at research such as that conducted by Karlis Osis with Alex Tanous, we find that his out-of-body perceptions in the laboratory were most accurate or veridical when he did not experience a secondary body, suggestive that the more objective form of experience is the form without a secondary body. This would also be consistent with my own findings from my own experiences and work with my students over the last more than 20 years. It is my hypothesis that the secondary body, when experienced, is a kind of model of the self, or a construct. This construct seems, in most cases, to diminish or disappear completely once the practitioner becomes more comfortable in the out-of-body state.

Lucid dreams in my opinion are a totally different experience to an OBE, their only relationship is they are both states of consciousness. I have written an article highlighting 17 reasons I believe this is the case. I think the popularity of the link between the two is again a symptom of new age unscientific approaches to OBEs and people repeating uninformed opinions across the internet. 

Remote viewing is a structured protocol for applying psi abilities. If we put the protocol aspect aside then I feel that psi abilities and especially clairvoyance are a form of non-local perception and are on a continuum with OBEs. I feel non-local perceptions arise in remote viewing while the primary senses are still fully active, while an OBE or ICE are fully immersive experiences. Essentially, the senses and bodily awareness are shut down, and a complex multisensory experience comes to the fore. Is this within the body and receiving the information from the external world, or is this a totally separate experience, or some combination of the two is hard to say. I tend to lean towards it is a combination of the two at this point in my understanding.

In terms of what differentiates the different types of experience, I base this on an evaluation of both the internal experience as best we can know it, and the external characteristics we can identify from laboratory research and case studies. At this point there are large gaps in our understanding of the phenomenology of OBEs, so this is my focus currently. I am drawing data together to build an understanding of what people actually experience and then from that look at different kinds of OBE, ICE, and non-local consciousness. From there I hope to build a more consistent model of what we know and what OBEs might be in various contexts. I have just completed work on a paper with Patrizio Tressoldi, that is being peer reviewed and should be published soon, looking at the phenomenology of OBEs in both  induced and spontaneous OBEs.

6. What are your thoughts about specific "objectively-existing" "Locales" that OBErs can visit? Is it all only subjective mind-creating/exploring or is there truth to that?

I think based upon the limited information we have available now we can’t say with much confidence. But from my own experience and reviewing the data at this point I would say it is a mixture. There certainly seems to be consistencies, like in my own shared death experience (SDE) linked above. But there are also culturally based inconsistencies, so we are left with no clear line. So the logical conclusion would be that these ‘areas’ contain both objective and subjective elements. Whether or not that means they are ‘places’ in our usual understanding of the word, I don’t think we can say. They could also be some form of telepathic link or other psi connection. 

And then can we expect those Locales to be "places" consciousness continues to visit in the "afterlife"?

Well as I said we don’t have enough to go on to make leaps like that, and I am very careful to not go the usual road in this area of 1 + 1 = 11. I want to look as objectively as possible at what we know and draw from that. So I would say that experiences like my SDE certainly suggest both an afterlife and a consistent environment, but there are also experiences that that don’t.

7. If out-of-body experiences really involve what they appear to do - perception from a viewpoint outside the body - and if they can be induced, why can't that be proved by straightforward experiment? If they don't involve that, in what sense can they be considered objective?

This is quite a common and important question, so I will explore this with some depth. Veridical or objective evidence for out-of-body experiences (OBEs) within a controlled context is subject to much the same limitations and strengths as in other areas of psi research or science in general. However, the small amount of research we have is supportive of objective perception during OBEs. So by usual scientific standards OBEs can be demonstrated by simple experiment. 

Examples of real blind targets and my corresponding drawings from a successful study conducted by
The Rhine Research Center (US). All drawings also included accurate details of characteristics, colour and texture etc.

I would argue that we have a strong convergence of evidence from NDE, OBE, and remote viewing research (which I have taken part in with the Rhine Research Center, see image) that suggests perception of remote locations/objects is possible. So the question comes down to controllability of the OBE within a laboratory or other controlled context, when this has been attempted, by Karlis Osis for example, it seems to be possible with limits dependent upon the quality of the perceptual framework, depth of the experience, and type of location or target. 

When we look at the few studies that have addressed veridical OBEs specifically, we find that the levels are similar to those found in telepathy research using selected or high scoring subjects. For example, in Patrizio Tressoldi’s research the level of OBE non-local perceptual accuracy under fully blinded conditions was 66.7% (as assessed by independent judges), when only 25% would have been expected by chance. 

It seems that for the best level of accuracy in OBEs a peak level experience is required, which means an experience of complete, or near complete, immersion in the experience. These peak experiences are what are reported in my own work (as mentioned above I refer to them as Independent Consciousness Experiences), or in prospective studies such as Dr Penny Sartori’s NDE study, which found further evidence of veridical perception. Or in broader reviews like the recent book The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences by Titus Rivas and Anny Dirven. Peak experiences are unpredictable, so future studies will need to take this into account when designing the protocol, as I suggested in my chapter for the book Consciousness Beyond the Body.

If the focus of the question is why are OBEs not straightforward to demonstrate under controlled conditions, then the answer would be that average OBEs are generally either not of the quality, or controllability, of peak experiences, so the results become statistical in nature and/or the type of target selected is not in-line with what subjects generally experience within OBEs (again see my chapter in Consciousness Beyond the Body).

However, more importantly virtually no one (except  Dr Tressoldi) is doing research on veridical OBEs. This is the real reason we have very little data on objective perceptions under controlled conditions, this situation is only worsened by outspoken sceptics who undermine funding and scientific openness to experimental research. However, the evidence we do have so far clearly supports that veridical OBEs or non-local perceptions can be scientifically demonstrated.

8. What have your experiences suggested to you about the "ultimate" nature of reality, or at the very least, our "individual" consciousness and the potential spectrum of experience that is available to us, if anything?

My experiences suggest that consciousness is part of an interconnected web. My experiences do not support any particular framework, like we are just here to learn, or reality is a simulation etc. There is nothing in my experiences to contradict the idea that physical reality is the primary reality or the most important. That is why living compassionately, seeing beyond dogma and taboo, and understanding we are probably wrong and fallible about many things, are central to my understanding and experience.  I am fascinated by the idea that consciousness could be fundamental, but I am not yet convinced this is the case. Although, it would seem obvious that the building blocks for life and consciousness must be innate qualities within the laws of our universe, but that is not the same thing as consciousness being the basis of everything.

9. Are "vibrations" real phenomena? Do you feel they have some sort of quasi-physical-energetic basis?

Well many people certainly experience various forms of vibrational or electrical-like sensations prior to an OBE. I tend to view them as a group of perceptions I call transitional stages. These are basically the group of noises, sensations, and states that people commonly describe prior to an OBE. During research for my second book (Navigating the Out-of-Body Experience) I spent a lot of time researching the descriptions of the so-called vibrational state and found a vast spectrum of descriptions. These ranged from a subtle electrical sensation or waves, to a jet plane engine in the room. So it would be very difficult to put this range of experience down to something like a  quasi-physical energy. I am really undecided on whether I feel such a thing exists. If it does I tend to think that it’s not going to be any kind of energy related to how we would usually understand energy. But at this point it seems unlikely it’s an energy, I feel the vibrational state is more likely the result of the breaking down of the usual sense of self and body awareness.

10. What is your opinion on between life regression and Michael Newton’s account of it?

I am not very familiar with his work, so I can’t really comment, but it looks very interesting. Although, it is my understanding it is hypnosis based, and I have reservations about the reliability of hypnosis. I tend to focus on the work of Jim Tucker at the University of Virginia, USA and Erlendur Haraldsson at the University of Iceland, regarding past life memories, mainly in children. I arranged some lectures for Erlendur Haraldsson recently and I find some of the cases he discovered while working with Ian Stevenson were extremely compelling. The discovery of birthmarks that correlated with the death wounds of the child’s previous life memories were especially fascinating. Such marks suggest there could be more going on than a form of psi-based collective memory.

11. You have written about Veganism before and you are yourself a Vegan. What made you decide to be a Vegan, how does it fit into your outlook on life, and does being Vegan affect OBE’s in any way?

Well I should probably start with my becoming vegetarian in 1992. I made that choice mainly because I had read that it was helpful for OBEs. I found the frequency of my experiences did go up after the switch, so I stuck with it and later found that many meditation teachers also recommend a vegetarian diet. Then after my profound experience in Sardinia in 2002 I started to focus on compassion in my life more and more. I started to research poverty across the world and other areas of huge inequality and exploitation. This inevitably led me to consider the situation of non-human animals. I realised that vegetarianism was not enough, the dairy industry was in some ways worse than the meat industry. I started to think about things I’d seen in my youth and talk with my father, who was a butcher at Smithfield market in London for many years. He told me details of the killing and I began to realise I couldn’t support such things. It is easy to fool ourselves that if the animals are killed nicely then it’s ok, I started to see through that lie. It is needless as we can be healthier without animal products as the science shows, so why? I had to change. So I gave up the dairy and eggs from my diet, and as veganism is not just a diet, I also no longer use leather, wool, or anything derived from an animal. I focus on sustainable biodegradable shoes and fabrics made from natural products, like hemp, as much as is possible.

On the issue of whether or not a whole food plant based diet is of benefit to OBEs, I have seen examples of the benefits for many years. Recently, I did an informal study to get a better idea of the impact. The chart below is the result of that, based upon scoring the quantity, and duration of the experiences in a group of my private students.

This was based upon a the scientific approach to nutrition as outlined in Dr Michael Greger’s book How Not to Die, or promoted via PCRM’s free 21 day kickstart course.

12. Why do you think more people aren’t interested in OBE’s, Parapsychology, Spirituality, and other related topics?

Well many clearly are, it just comes down to culture and how things are packaged. Obviously, if something seems to confirm a particular religion or worldview people want to believe then it will be more popular. Systematic science or a rational approach to these kinds of experiences is not as attractive for people as it takes time and engagement to really understand something. So that’s probably why parapsychology gets less attention. It’s easier to listen to someone claiming they know all the answers and exactly how it all works. I would say someone saying they know how these areas work is the number one sign you should run the other way. That problem can come in the form of scientists too, who overstate our current level of understanding and speak with such authority that they become gurus to the sceptics, or anti-religious etc.

13. What factors do you think lead to people having OBE’s? Any tips on how to induce them?

I will say that the biggest mistake people make is they focus on techniques and end up just trying technique after technique and getting nowhere. The real key to inducing OBEs is your physical/mental state before you begin any visualisation or other technique, or go to sleep, if using a sleep method. But I wrote a book and created a course for those wanting to learn, so that is the most scientifically based avenue, and I don’t just say that as a plug. 

14. The penultimate question is just about your worldview in general. What have your OBE’s lead you to believe in terms of God, the afterlife, and spirituality in general?

I focus more on stripping away beliefs and the societal influences that limit us. The question of god(s) has never really been a particular focus for me. I wasn’t raised in a religious context and my OBEs haven’t brought me into contact with anything like the monotheistic notions of ‘God’. Such concepts only seem to work with my experience when they are abstracted to the point of meaninglessness, a universal source or whatever. The idea of a creator certainly doesn’t make sense for me, I tend to view things in terms of simplicity developing into complexity, so the evolutionary model makes more sense, although I’m sure there is more going on than we currently understand. I can relate to god ideas as archetypes, or symbols of collective focus that may take on something beyond our understanding, but that would be more us creating them.

As I’ve mentioned the idea of some form of survival of consciousness is consistent with the evidence and my own experience. So I would say I consider that highly probable. 

Spirituality is an important result of the interconnected nature of my experiences. I see it as about the application of what these experiences reveal or suggest to me. An emphasis on non-violence (including veganism), a more freedom based understanding of the world, society, and politics (so anti-authoritarianism), and ultimately the humility to say I don’t know, but the strength to stand against bigotry and injustice. 

15. Finally can you tell us about how to contact you, any books you have out, and about your OBE classes?

You can contact me and find out about my workshops or private tuition etc., via my website: https://www.grahamnicholls.com 

My books Avenues of the Human Spirit and Navigating the Out-of-Body Experience are available from the usual places, like Amazon or Barnes & Noble in both print and digital formats. 

[Laird]

An edifying interview; thank you very much, Roberta and Graham, for the effort you put in to create this content.

Thank you for the interview.

[Laird]

Some somewhat unstructured thoughts/comments on (some of what I like in) the interview:

• I like that the issue of how to delineate the various related types of conscious experiences - NDEs, OBEs, lucid dreams, remote viewing, etc - came up (a couple of times - in questions #3 and #5). The "17 reasons" article that Graham linked to in answer #5 was interesting. I do wonder though how much of that list is generalisable and how much is somewhat more specific to Graham's individual experience(s): a lot of it does seem quite general, some as backed with references to research, but I'm not sure that/whether all of it is (not that I expect that Graham would necessarily disagree with my comments here anyway...). Speaking of individual experiences...
  
• ...I like Graham's answer to the question that I contributed: again, #3. I find it fascinating that Graham's OBEs are more like NDEs than others report their OBEs to be. Also re this question and others (e.g. #6)...
  
• ...I like the distinction that Graham draws between objectivity and subjectivity in OBEs, and his suggestion that OBEs initiated during sleep are likely to have more subjective aspects than those initiating out of the relaxed waking state. I also like that Graham offered (in answer #7) some useful references re work that is being / has been done on the veridical aspects of OBEs - I haven't, though, followed up on any of those references at this point.
  
• I like that Roberta asked about metaphysics and broader reality (in #8 and #14): about what Graham's experiences have taught him about all of that. Much respect for, and I can very much relate to, the approach Graham writes of in the final three (especially the last) sentences of his answer #14: "Spirituality is an important result of the interconnected nature of my experiences. I see it as about the application of what these experiences reveal or suggest to me. An emphasis on non-violence (including veganism), a more freedom based understanding of the world, society, and politics (so anti-authoritarianism), and ultimately the humility to say I don’t know, but the strength to stand against bigotry and injustice."
  
• A vegan-related question... yes, Roberta, yes. And a favourable graph in the answer... yes again. This is what I like to see.
  

Again: a valuable interview; thanks, guys.

Yes, I thought it was very interesting, including the answer to my question about experimental testing of the objective nature of induced OBEs.

I see that Tressoldi's unpublished paper on this subject (together with referees' reactions) is available here:
https://www.academia.edu/36243383/Out-of...cteristics

I just skimmed through it briefly for now. Very interesting. Roberta, if you read this please could you add Rudolf Smit's name alongside Titus Rivas and Anny Dirven, thanks.

I thought Graham's responses were far less sensational, and more reserved and open minded than other excerpts of his ideas that I vaguely recall having read elsewhere. So this interview improved my perception of him.

I also read the Tressoldi study you linked to, thanks for the link. Very small study, but in any-case, the meat of the paper really should be at page 11... but it's totally inadequate. I didn't waste anymore than 5 minutes of reading this.

Yes - it certainly gives the impression that the experimenter selected the targets from the image database and then separately selected the decoys, rather than selecting sets of images and then choosing randomly which should be the target. If that's how it was done, there would have been nothing to stop the experimenter subconsciously choosing more attractive images as targets and less attractive ones as decoys.


And the targets were the same for all the participants (and the decoys as well, by the sound of it), which means there were really only 6 fully independent trials, so analysing them as 30 independent trials was incorrect. Nor should the judges' choices have been added in as though they were additional independent trials.

Yes, I thought it was very interesting, including the answer to my question about experimental testing of the objective nature of induced OBEs.

I see that Tressoldi's unpublished paper on this subject (together with referees' reactions) is available here:
https://www.academia.edu/36243383/Out-of...cteristics

In case it's of interest to anyone, this paper by Tressoldi et al. refers to a couple of reviews of ESP during induced OBEs, but (unless I'm missing it) not any individual studies that produced statistically significant results.

The older review (Alvarado, 1982) is available here:
https://www.academia.edu/366168/_1982_._...46_209_230

The abstract says:
The evidence for ESP occurrence, as well as for the possible ESP-conducive properties of the OBEs, is considered to be weak, although there have been some striking results.

Unfortunately the more recent work referred to, a book chapter entitled "Anomalous self and identity experiences", by Cardena and Alvarado (2014), doesn't seem to be available online. But I can't see any reference to psi in the abstract, and OBEs are mentioned as just one of the topics covered, so evidently psi during OBEs isn't a central subject of the work:
http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-12706-007

The chapter by Zingrone, Alvarado and Hovelmann in the "Handbook for the 21st Century" (2015) has a section on OBEs, but doesn't mention any work on veridical OBEs since the date of the above review by Alvarado (1982).

Nice to see this interview featured by the SPR on its Facebook page!