Is Evil One of God's Tools?

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(2017-08-28, 09:52 PM)Pssst Wrote: Depends.

Are you a pure reflection of 'God'? In the image of the Creator? One with All That Is? Then yes.

If "No" to the above, then you may have an interesting journey through your life if you wish to front load it with the experience of "God shoves life down my throat".

Can you explain/expand on what you mean here please? I don't get it.

I'm in the uk and it's late, so I might not be able to reply for some time.
(2017-08-28, 10:01 PM)Stan Woolley Wrote: Can you explain/expand on what you mean here please? I don't get it.
Life either happens TO you or THROUGH you, if you are of the former POV, then you can certainly say that God uses evil as a tool.

If your POV is that you are responsible for creating your physical reality, then, well...
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My only complaint about God is that he-she seems to have burdened me with enough mysteries for ten life times. Why just trying to comprehend the subtleties of reincarnation.....
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(2017-08-28, 06:45 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: "I would agree with this but I don't know if this physical world is really best described as a school. Admittedly we're retreating old ground here, will see if I can dig up some stuff out of the Skeptiko Gnosticism Thread that's more specific but if people want to run through the whole old convo....

I think the question of responsibility on God's part depends on God's ability to intervene or whether this entity really has all the requisites we associate with the Deity traditionally. A Prime Mover may not even be a conscious entity, a "God of Movement" rather than a "God of Meaning". Brahman isn't really "God" in the sense that Vishnu is a God, and IIRC Plotinus said The One wasn't a being you'd worship as it was the Wholeness one seeks to return to. Two Gods, one of Good & one of Evil, of course shifts things further though I think the idea of God refers to the Ground of Being of which, in Highlander speak, There Can Only Be One.

The great challenge of apologia is reconciling God's Power with God's Love. I personally am skeptical this is reconcilable though I appreciated Chokti's posts on the matter relating to theism in general as well as his own Christian perspective."
GREAT post Sci, this pretty much sums up my working theory, but you expressed it so well that I'm going to put it in a frame :-) (though I wouldn't personally seek to return to a Wholeness if it includes Evil, too, as it appears to do: I would rather seek extinction - but that's just the way I feel about it)
(This post was last modified: 2017-09-01, 08:17 PM by hypermagda.)
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Reincarnation is real. It is also a fairer and less problematic philosophy than some alternatives.
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(2017-09-12, 10:57 AM)Typoz Wrote: Reincarnation is real. It is also a fairer and less problematic philosophy than some alternatives.

Agreed.

I think the question one next uncovers is what to do with those lifetimes,,

By which I mean, is karma a real thing? 

Not that we can even know this, but much of my reading of channeled and other mediumship works in the last several years has suggested that no, you don't suffer to atone for bad or visa versa.
(2017-09-12, 11:28 AM)Depends on what you mean by karma, of course. The word simply means "action" and there are a variety of interpretations of its mechanisms and significance in Indic and Western esoteric traditions. A Buddhist, or say a Swedenborgian, perspective would have it not so much as needing to "atone" for anything, but that the characteristics of one life\s consciousness imprint upon that which emerges upon its terminus - whether, in Buddhism, entering a particular incarnation or one of the various lokas, or in Swedenborg, gravitating toward a certain sphere of the spirit world based upon one's presiding loves. Swedenborg doesn't call this "karma," mind you, but he is presenting an equivalent idea. Wrote: By which I mean, is karma a real thing? 

Not that we can even know this, but much of my reading of channeled and other mediumship works in the last several years has suggested that no, you don't suffer to atone for bad or visa versa.
In order for karma to be interpreted as judgmental, who is going to judge you?

Karma is entirely self-imposed. You create it by your beliefs and attitudes about yourself and the world. Any karma you "feel" is a belief, and something you chose to go through as a theme in this life. All beliefs can be changed.

"What you put out is what you get back". Law Three, simple physics.
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  • Steve from ABQ
This short essay by Granville Sewell is I think one of the best deistic rationalizations of the reality of evil I have encountered.  Of course there are other rationalizations, and of course the materialist view that no rationalization is possible, so "suck it up". 

A vast amount of suffering is caused by evil actions of human beings. Second, there is a vast amount of "natural evil" caused by the natural world by things like disease, floods and earthquakes. Any proposed deistic or other solution to the ancient theological problem of suffering has to explain both categories. 

The basic approach in this essay is to combine various arguments that mankind's suffering is an inevitable accompaniment of our greatest blessings and benefits.

Why pain, suffering and evil? Main points that are made:

(1) There is the observed regularity of natural law. The basic laws of physics appear to be cleverly designed to create conditions suitable for human life and development. It can be surmised that this intricate fine-tuned design is inherently a series of tradeoffs and balances, allowing and fostering human existence but also inevitably allowing "natural evil" to regularly occur. In other words, the best solution to the overall "system requirements" (which include furnishing manifold opportunities for humans to experience and achieve) inherently includes natural effects that cause suffering to human beings. 

This points out that there may be logical and fundamental limitations to God's creativity. Maybe even He can't 100% satisfy all the requirements simultaneously. Maybe He doesn't have complete control over nature, because that would interfere with the essential requirements for creative and fulfilling human life. After all, human achievement requires imperfection and adverse conditions to exist as a natural part of human life.  

(2) There is the apparent need for human free will as one of the most important "design requirements". This inevitably leads to vast amounts of suffering caused by evil acts of humans to each other. Unfortunately, there is no way to get around that one, except to make humans "zombies" or robots. 

(3) Some suffering is necessary to enable us to experience life in its fullest and to achieve the most. Often it is through suffering that we experience the deepest love of family and friends. "The man who has never experienced any setbacks or disappointments invariably is a shallow person, while one who has suffered is usually better able to empathize with others. Some of the closest and most beautiful relationships occur between people who have suffered similar sorrows."

Some of the great works of literature, art and music were the products of suffering. "One whose life has led him to expect continued comfort and ease is not likely to make the sacrifices necessary to produce anything of great and lasting value." 

Of course, the brute fact is that there is an egregious amount of truly innocent and apparently meaningless suffering, that our instinct tells us is wrong. Is it at all worth it?

Sewell concludes:

"Why does God remain backstage, hidden from view, working behind the scenes while we act out our parts in the human drama? ....now perhaps we finally have an answer. If he were to walk out onto the stage, and take on a more direct and visible role, I suppose he could clean up our act, and rid the world of pain and evil — and doubt. But our human drama would be turned into a divine puppet show, and it would cost us some of our greatest blessings: the regularity of natural law which makes our achievements meaningful; the free will which makes us more interesting than robots; the love which we can receive from and give to others; and even the opportunity to grow and develop through suffering. I must confess that I still often wonder if the blessings are worth the terrible price, but God has chosen to create a world where both good and evil can flourish, rather than one where neither can exist. He has chosen to create a world of greatness and infamy, of love and hatred, and of joy and pain, rather than one of mindless robots or unfeeling puppets."

Overall, it all may be a vast tradeoff, and some people might conclude it isn't a good one from the human perspective.
(This post was last modified: 2017-11-06, 11:32 PM by nbtruthman.)

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