Even After $100 Billion, Self-Driving Cars Are Going Nowhere

Well team:  I purchased a 2023 Model Y a few weeks ago.  Have to report that so far I simply love the car.

I did NOT purchase the "Full Self Driving" module but the car comes standard with a quasi-version of autopilot.  Basically, it has adaptive cruise control combined with auto-steering lane maintenance.  Its really wonderful on longer highway drives (which I do with some regularity).  Someone put it this way to me: "Teslas are technology with a car wrapped around it.  Other automakers make cars with technology wrapped around them."  That resonates with me.

I did get a loaner after having a couple of minor delivery items addressed.  The loaner (a Model 3) DID have FSD.  So, I told the car to drive me home.  It was pretty remarkable.  Changed lanes, stopped for lights, etc.  It basically did drive me home.   However, and its a BIG however, the car did get confused on a left turn (across traffic here in the states) at a traffic light.  The light went yellow and then red while the car was a teeny bit extended into the intersection.  That was well and good.  However, a couple seconds later after cross traffic was fully active it decided NOW was the time to make the left turn.  Needless to say I retook control of the vehicle and stopped its movement.  This would have clearly been an accident.

So, to Sci's point..... Tesla's FSD isn't quite ready for prime time.  That said it sure felt 'close' to me but I'll concede the proverbial last mile is probably the hardest part by a big factor.

Can I just clarify something? You made ONE journey in the self driving car, and you had to take over to prevent a bad crash!

I think that says it all.

Did you report it to the company?

David

Can I just clarify something? You made ONE journey in the self driving car, and you had to take over to prevent a bad crash!

I think that says it all.

Did you report it to the company?

David

For once I have to agree with David. The problem with machine learning is that it’s difficult to make incremental improvement. What feels like “it’s almost working” might be a very difficult gap to fill.

Can I just clarify something? You made ONE journey in the self driving car, and you had to take over to prevent a bad crash!

I think that says it all.

Did you report it to the company?

David

Actually, I made two (from dealership and back to the dealership).  On the second I had another incident where the car inched out in an apparent attempt to make a right turn on red (not sure how this works outside the U.S.  For us 'right side of the road' drivers in the U.S. we are typically allowed to make a right turn on a red light assuming there is sufficient room in traffic to do so safely).

Anyway, the car 'crept' out far enough to be intruding in the cross traffic.  Again, I had to retake control of the car and reverse slightly.

So, 2 trips and 2 rather significant failures.  Depending on how you score it that's a 100% failure rate or 2 mistakes in an otherwise flawless self-driving set of sessions.  Clearly, the former is the necessary standard as a human driver would rarely/likely never (?) have made either of those mistakes.

I did report both as the capability is still listed as 'beta' so it has a built in reporting function that's easy to use.  Click a button and verbally report what transpired.

Actually, I made two (from dealership and back to the dealership).  On the second I had another incident where the car inched out in an apparent attempt to make a right turn on red (not sure how this works outside the U.S.  For us 'right side of the road' drivers in the U.S. we are typically allowed to make a right turn on a red light assuming there is sufficient room in traffic to do so safely).

The UK does it differently. If they want people turning left (remember we drive on the left) to move off ahead of other traffic, they use a left arrow on the lights that lights up in green when that is OK. I have driven in the US in places like rural Colorado and Utah, where the traffic is really light, and even so, I would not turn right unless the main light was green or someone honked me!

Anyway, the car 'crept' out far enough to be intruding in the cross traffic.  Again, I had to retake control of the car and reverse slightly.

So, 2 trips and 2 rather significant failures.  Depending on how you score it that's a 100% failure rate or 2 mistakes in an otherwise flawless self-driving set of sessions.  Clearly, the former is the necessary standard as a human driver would rarely/likely never (?) have made either of those mistakes.

I did report both as the capability is still listed as 'beta' so it has a built in reporting function that's easy to use.  Click a button and verbally report what transpired.

Of course, that sort of reporting is inherently biased - those who are injured or left as a gibbering wreck, don't use the tool!

I must say, I don't like the turn-right-on red rule, so I have some sympathy for the AI (!!), but I think humans normally perform a little better. Having said that, I was in a queue of traffic this evening travelling at about 20 MPH, and the car in front suddenly made a sharp right turn with a view to doing a 3-point turn. Thank goodness for power-assisted brakes!

David

Corporate Capture in California

Susannah Glickman

The rollout of self-driving taxis in the San Francisco Bay Area has been anything but smooth for public safety. Automated cars have blocked emergency vehicles trying to make it to the scene of a mass shooting, and hindered the path of an ambulance carrying a man who was struck by a vehicle and didn’t reach the hospital in time to save his life. Long lines of robotaxis shut down the streets of an entire neighborhood in San Francisco after turning off for 15 minutes without warning. According to the Los Angeles Times, “[t]he city’s Fire Department has logged more than 55 cases of robotaxis interfering with first responders.” These are but a few of the litany of problems.

How did the Bay Area population become uncompensated test subjects for the banal dreams of hubristic tech billionaires? California’s incredible deference to Big Tech is to blame.

THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES (DMV) presides over the largest autonomous-vehicle testing program in the country, having granted permits to no fewer than 60 companies. Only two, Cruise (owned by General Motors) and Waymo (a Google “sister company,” according to their court filings) have gotten “driverless deployment permits,” which allow them to receive compensation for their rides. Despite recurring safety problems, these companies had no problems receiving these permits, which critics have condemned.

The California DMV has extended another significant favor to these companies: completely shielding them from any scrutiny about how the DMV, a public agency funded with public tax dollars and ostensibly accountable to the public, granted these permits...

Lmao. All of you are so dumb. You guys don’t know anything. Why don’t you all just shut up? 

Now how do I start a new thread? I got things on my mind.  It’s been like 6 years and i don’t know where to start.  

Where is the “other stuff” section?

Is David still trying to be the boss and control everything like a filthy statist? Pathetic. 

I’ve learned so much since I’ve been away. 

Where’s malf?

The UK does it differently. If they want people turning left (remember we drive on the left) to move off ahead of other traffic, they use a left arrow on the lights that lights up in green when that is OK. I have driven in the US in places like rural Colorado and Utah, where the traffic is really light, and even so, I would not turn right unless the main light was green or someone honked me!

Of course, that sort of reporting is inherently biased - those who are injured or left as a gibbering wreck, don't use the tool!

I must say, I don't like the turn-right-on red rule, so I have some sympathy for the AI (!!), but I think humans normally perform a little better. Having said that, I was in a queue of traffic this evening travelling at about 20 MPH, and the car in front suddenly made a sharp right turn with a view to doing a 3-point turn. Thank goodness for power-assisted brakes!

David

Wow! There’s a rule you don’t like?! Amazing!

Remember Brexit, David? It didn’t do shit. 

Too bad England is over.  :’(

Is David still trying to be the boss and control everything like a filthy statist? Pathetic. 

I’ve learned so much since I’ve been away. 

Where’s malf?

I think the old "skeptics" got frustrated with the bias and hand waving and claiming that things are proven facts when they are not that some of the more extreme proponents keep on doing.  Linda (fls) should be here too.  We do have @sbu  keeping us on our toes but I am playing devils advocate nowadays and finding counter-evidence to the proponents pipe dreams, even though I am a proponent myself (albeit a skeptical one)

I think the old "skeptics" got frustrated with the bias and hand waving and claiming that things are proven facts when they are not that some of the more extreme proponents keep on doing.  Linda (fls) should be here too.  We do have @sbu  keeping us on our toes but I am playing devils advocate nowadays and finding counter-evidence to the proponents pipe dreams, even though I am a proponent myself (albeit a skeptical one)

Generally across the internet I think you'll find the skeptic movement has lost a lot of activity. My thinking is alliances shifted - see Meyer / Shermer / Kastrup being colleagues/friends - due to external issues taking precedence but also...

The skeptics lost. Hard Problem unsolved to the point Idealism & Panpsychism have made comebacks, questions of ID/Fine-Tuning/Simulation mainstreamed, UFO disclosures, atheism globally on decline. Heck even witchcraft seems to be on the rise, and shows involving paranormal research are often popular though sometimes beyond even my tolerance for speculation...

Also I don't really see the need for much pseudo-skeptical input. I myself don't think the US gov't has retrieved alien spacecraft & I am still somewhat on the fence regarding Intelligent Design but these debates are at least more interesting than the question of whether there's any Survival or Psi. While these may not be settled topics I'd rather discuss the implications/possibilities of their reality.

Maybe that's a personal preference, but I feel like this board is one of the few places you can actually have those kinds of discussions without having to accept any particular ideology/religion/viewpoint. I recall trying to talk on a dedicated Tom Campbell forum and it was an exercise in frustration...