Double slit experiment - just bouncing particles?

OMG!  Sparky and Steve001 in the thread.   Linda and Malf at least tried to argue intelligently!

OMG!  Sparky and Steve001 in the thread.   Linda and Malf at least tried to argue intelligently!

I thought this after reading your complimentary reply. When one does not understand QM should that one ask for clarification from others that have an equally limited understanding?

The other is can you name the reasons why all the skeptically minded left this forum?

That is an old and stale excuse.
Psi research seems to be eternally stuck in trying to prove psi exists, not by the actions of skeptical scientists, but by the inaction of psi researchers.
All i ever saw here and over at Skeptiko were endless discussions rehashing old experimental results, i never saw anything going beyond that.
For what you repeat to make any sense, there should be at least one experiment that works with some reliability.
If we would have that, experiments could be devised that investigate what you are talking about.
Do you know of such an experiment?

I think you make a good point.  The science of psi hardly makes an airtight case.

However, I think its patently unfair to not acknowledge the close mindedness of many in the science community to things outside the present scientific orthodoxy.  This does create some real headwinds in terms of funding, and maybe most importantly giving open minded, smart scientists the room to explore non-orthodox ideas without fear of reprisal or even excommunication.

I think that this debate highlights one of the problems that we, as proponents of a more spiritual or consciousness-based worldview, have in the world at large. Particularly since these anti-vaccination, Covid-is-a-hoax, conspiracy theories gained widespread support in the USA. Those CTs are, rightly in my view, considered anti-science by the mainstream scientific orthodoxy and many media opinion makers. However, that seems to give license to those who would like to include anything else that they consider anti-science, such as the paranormal, psychics, religious beliefs and anything considered "fringe" such as natural health remedies, etc.

As I understand it, science does not have a position. It does not hold to a philosophy. It is just a means of inquiry. If we start mistakenly crowing about "science" being debunked then we leave ourselves open to the charge of being anti-science and justifying those who would label us likewise.

What really undermines non-orthodoxy is the conviction that many of its proponent's have regarding the "alt" views.  This is especially true in my view of the CT's you listed.  All you have to do is take a spin through Skeptiko these days.  The mainstream view isn't questioned, its dismissed out of hand.  The "alt" view is considered scientific fact, while of course, no actual scientific process or method has been followed.  Its all simply appeals to various internet authorities.

Its lazy, hypocritical, and unintelligent.

So picture yourself as a mainstream scientific materialist worldview oriented person.  The baby is absolutely going to get thrown out with the bath water when this person moves from topics such as Trump's re-election being stolen (a favorite at Skeptiko) to the potential existence of psi or non-materialist/reductionist explanations of consciousness (my favorite).

If folks would stop proselytizing their position (mainstream AND alt) and instead present it as theory and ask some questions we might actually get somewhere.

What really undermines non-orthodoxy is the conviction that many of its proponent's have regarding the "alt" views.  This is especially true in my view of the CT's you listed.  All you have to do is take a spin through Skeptiko these days.  The mainstream view isn't questioned, its dismissed out of hand.  The "alt" view is considered scientific fact, while of course, no actual scientific process or method has been followed.  Its all simply appeals to various internet authorities.

Its lazy, hypocritical, and unintelligent.

So picture yourself as a mainstream scientific materialist worldview oriented person. 

I don't need to - I was that person.

The baby is absolutely going to get thrown out with the bath water when this person moves from topics such as Trump's re-election being stolen (a favorite at Skeptiko) to the potential existence of psi or non-materialist/reductionist explanations of consciousness (my favorite).

As I understand it, politics are not discussed on this forum - this is something I agree with, having seen what happens when politics and alternative views of science are mixed.

If folks would stop proselytizing their position (mainstream AND alt) and instead present it as theory and ask some questions we might actually get somewhere.

Most science doesn't start with a theory, but with anomalous facts. If people hadn't observed certain behaviours that we now attribute to electric charge there would not have been a theory of electromagnetism.

Likewise, if people hadn't observed that for example certain minerals stay warmer than room temperature, there would be no radioactivity theory.

Unfortunately we have reached a state in which science theory has run way ahead of experimental facts, and any experiments or observations that seem to contradict theory are discarded.

That is how I see it, but I don't see an easy way to resolve this - I mean it would seem that even extremely gifted psychics of various sorts can be sidelined by science without any reasoned discussion.

I think you make a good point.  The science of psi hardly makes an airtight case.

However, I think its patently unfair to not acknowledge the close mindedness of many in the science community to things outside the present scientific orthodoxy.  This does create s - and the media ome real headwinds in terms of funding, and maybe most importantly giving open minded, smart scientists the room to explore non-orthodox ideas without fear of reprisal or even excommunication.

Many think that UFO's (the traditional acronym that I prefer) involve some consciousness manipulating aspects.

The strange situation in which we get a saga in which we keep hearing everything is going to be disclosed, but then very little is, and the media don't even seem curious about what is going on, probably represents some enormous struggle to hide something that might be very relevant psi/consciousness.

People can actually experience stuff and then try to deny it because it is inconsistent with conventional science - think of Michael Shermer's experience. He wrote about it, and then seems to want to forget it!

I'll mention this, though it has been discussed here before. It is pleasing to see some serious academic research being undertaken at Northampton University, under the guidance of Prof Chris Roe. Elsewhere there are youtube videos which tend to be lengthy where some of the research and positive results are discussed.

One of the guest speakers there was Rupert Sheldrake. He himself is a serious academic, and it is good to see him speaking within an academic context.

I'll mention this, though it has been discussed here before. It is pleasing to see some serious academic research being undertaken at Northampton University, under the guidance of Prof Chris Roe. Elsewhere there are youtube videos which tend to be lengthy where some of the research and positive results are discussed.

One of the guest speakers there was Rupert Sheldrake. He himself is a serious academic, and it is good to see him speaking within an academic context.

Yeah, it is quite odd when something like Many Worlds Interpretation is given scientific rationalization but the paranormal is given short shrift though the latter has some actual data behind it. Same for uploading your mind and living forever as a computer program. Admittedly you do have saner physicists noting at least a potential role for consciousness (Chris Fuchs , Adam Frank, & Nobel physicist Roger Penrose to name a few), recognizing consciousness is irreducible (Lee Smolin), or even that the paranormal and ID are legitimate scientific inquiries (Nobel physicist Brian Josephson, who's written about pseudoskeptic bias as well).

Given the APA published Transcendent Mind which is rooted in Psi data, BK has published articles supporting Idealism in Scientific American, Discover had that article about Filter-Transmission & a somewhat friendly NDE article, Vice published the article on the "Hard Science" of reincarnation, BBC had the short segment on dream telepathy, and so on....

We do seem to be seeing more and more rejection of fundamentalist pseudoskepticism. Even the skeptics seem to sense the change in the wind, what with Sean Carroll & Sam Harris interviewing the idealist Donald Hoffman & Shermer interviewing BK. Of course Shermer is now an agnostic who has had his own paranormal experience, and Sam Harris has said Phyiscalism is nonsensical.

Well I would say that most of us really want the truth about psychic matters. OTH in science there are huge pressures to speak someone else's 'truth'. Big Pharma, to take one example, exerts a massive financial push on researchers. Many books have been written about this malign practice, but it continues unabated. Cosmology has something similar - admit that Halton Arp has a point and that more research on the origin of red shifts really is needed, and their edifice also tumbles down.

I say it with some relish because those responsible should never have let science decay this way.

When it comes to psi, the pressure comes more from institutional science. Acknowledging psi would immediately raise issues about whether experiments can ever be disentangled from mental influences.

Ah ok, so you mean the Scientific Community. Regarding the latter point, applicable science would still continue to have value. Science would have to abandon the idea it can explain fundamentals like Consciousness, but it should already acknowledge that.

Conspiratorial thinking is one way one can use to choose where to disagree with scientific findings if they don't confirm your personal believes.
   

Translation: They should never have allowed science to disagree with me

That is an old and stale excuse.
Psi research seems to be eternally stuck in trying to prove psi exists, not by the actions of skeptical scientists, but by the inaction of psi researchers.
All i ever saw here and over at Skeptiko were endless discussions rehashing old experimental results, i never saw anything going beyond that.
For what you repeat to make any sense, there should be at least one experiment that works with some reliability.
If we would have that, experiments could be devised that investigate what you are talking about.
Do you know of such an experiment?

The attempts at gaslighting here are amazingly bad.