Do proponents have a harder time with horror entertainment?

[Laird]

To connect my previous two substantive posts:

It seems likely to me not just that psychedelics and similar make us vulnerable to spirit influence, but that bad habits in general do. This includes placing our attention on violence and horror, especially when we have a reasonably free choice not to.

It matters what we place our attention on, and what we think about. This is a common trope in spiritual traditions and experiences. It is common especially as a lesson learned by near-death experiencers.

Placing our attention on violence and horror is an unwholesome habit, just like drinking and gambling are. Unwholesome habits don't mean that we are bad people, but nor should they be celebrated nor excused.

I can understand horror film viewing as therapy, but it seems very likely to me that there are more wholesome therapies to be found. We work with what we have though.

I can understand less horror film viewing as a challenge. We can choose our challenges, and, again, there are so many more wholesome challenges to choose from.

Much less can I understand the comparison between horror and musicals. The valences of the two seem to me to be polar opposites. I could understand the comparison better on a view that some spiritual traditions have: that music is an intoxicant like alcohol, and therefore an unwholesome habit to indulge in.

I understand if this reply is unwelcome. I'm simply sharing my frame of reference.

I think there is a challenge here, in that the pursuit of the wholesome can easily lead to repression at the individual level and a tyranny at the macro level. 

Is it wrong to enjoy a video game where you kill demons? Where you stomp on turtles?

I don't completely disagree with you, as I do think one can be too attached to violence. But I also think fiction provides an avenue for vicarious experience, and I wouldn't be too quick to judge a horror fan anymore any more than I'd be quick to trust someone who claimed to be walking a path of purity.

[Laird]

@Sci, I think I understand how and why you're inferring a framing in terms of (right and) wrong, (moral) judgement, and puritanism, and the perhaps subtle objection you're raising to that framing, an objection that I also understand, which is why I prefer a framing in terms of (wholesome and) unwholesome, discernment, and striving (or aspiration). The distinction admittedly might in turn be too subtle to fully answer the implied objection, but I hope that it goes some way to responding to your concern about repression and tyranny.

I know what my own discernment tells me about killing demons and stomping on turtles in video games, albeit that I have not always exercised it in the same way; in my youth I enjoyed playing the early FPS games Doom and Quake. What about yours?

I agree that fiction offers a (valuable) path to vicarious experience, to which I add only that, again, discernment is also necessary in determining when we are actually learning or gaining something valuable from that vicarious experience, and when we are simply titillating, cheapening, or even exposing ourselves - and, of course, the line between the two can be blurry.

I know what my own discernment tells me about killing demons and stomping on turtles in video games, albeit that I have not always exercised it in the same way; in my youth I enjoyed playing the early FPS games Doom and Quake. What about yours?

I agree that fiction offers a (valuable) path to vicarious experience, to which I add only that, again, discernment is also necessary in determining when we are actually learning or gaining something valuable from that vicarious experience, and when we are simply titillating, cheapening, or even exposing ourselves - and, of course, the line between the two can be blurry.

Heh my experience with the old Doom games actually illustrates your point. I was fascinated by FPS games when they came out and specifically played Doom and Doom 2 for hours, and one week I was so consumed by them that even away from the computer it felt like there were after images of the games at the corners of my vision.

Then at some breaking point I became absolutely terrified, focused not on any of the monsters but the image of a horned demon grinning that was a wall texture. It was as if I could sense something malevolent. 

So why, after such a bizarre experience, do I still contend there is some value in horror movies or violent video games?Part of it is I am unconvinced my fear was anything more than my own imagination, part of it is in life there have been moments where I should have been paralyzed by fear but was able to act in part I suspect because I've had experience pushing past seemingly irrational fear.

Another part of it [is] I am also not convinced that continuously dwelling on the wholesome is a universal path for every soul. I would agree, for example, that if your sexual arousal is tied to hurting other people - even in fantasy - you at the very least need to deeply reflect. Similarly if you constantly imagine violent things happening to people who displease you.

However I also think entertainment that features violent imagery can be carthritic, and perhaps - since we don't really know what our spirits will face beyond this world or how the spiritual might come to interact with us in this life - possibly a useful preparation.

I had a friend in graduate school who I would watch notably bad horror movies with, and she was one of the kindest and most generous people I've ever known to the point of letting me stay in her tiny apartment when I had some issues with housing. 

On the other hand I've met people who focus on "high brow" literature or religious scripture who are frankly just terrible. As such I remain unconvinced that choice of entertainment is the determiner of character.

All that said there are limits, and we should be wary if we find ourselves enticed by or even just desensitized to Evil.

[Laird]

You've had darker experiences from playing Doom (and, in my case, also Quake) than I have, @Sci, yet I still look back and wonder why I ever thought that immersing myself in a virtual environment in which approaching zombies were blown into bloody pieces with hand grenades, among other hellish underground scenes, was a sensible thing to do. Of course, as you point out, FPS games were new back then, and the paradigm was exciting to explore, so that's a mitigating factor.

I can understand the idea of exposing oneself to virtual horror so as to overcome fear during actual horror or otherwise scary/phobic situations. I imagine though that there are better ways to do that, or, at least, ways that avoid such exposure, such as mindfulness and cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT).

I'd also still anyway prefer not to live in a world of horror or fear at all, as, I suspect, would most of us. Perhaps, even in that ideal world, some might believe in a postmortem hell for which they are bound, and want to prepare themselves for it, which I could understand too, although I'm not sure how well one could prepare for such a fate.

I am also not convinced that continuously dwelling on the wholesome is a universal path for every soul.

Perhaps it depends on where one's path leads, or at least where one wants to travel to, but in any case, there are of course shades of grey, not necessarily a strict binary of "wholesome" versus "unwholesome".

I remain unconvinced that choice of entertainment is the determiner of character.

Likewise. I haven't said that it is - not, in any case, that you are necessarily implying here that I have. I've said instead that good people sometimes develop unwholesome ("bad") habits, and that unwholesome habits can lead to unwholesome consequences, even if we can't tangibly point to those consequences, or at least that a world in which unwholesome habits exist is in itself an unwholesome (undesirable) consequence in itself.

So you don't think there are Hells? No malevolent entities?

Hells I can see as probably not existing, and possibly Parnia is right that distressing NDEs containing this imagery is more a combination of cultural conditioning + a variant of hospital delusion due to invasive procedures.

But there seem to be enough accounts where someone encounters something that is at best mischievous if not actively seeking to do harm. 

Yknow, honestly I don't know. In my perspective, it's well documented that people can go their entire lives without having anything fantastical happen to them, or at least nothing that stood out so much that it couldn't be easily rationalized as something else. Does this mean these things don't exist? No, but to me it does mean that if they do they're of such little influence on my life that they're not anything I need to worry about, or worry about the things I enjoy being affected by them. 

I do have to admit that I personally have the spiritual awareness of a brick, which is in great contrast to my wife who's all about it, so I'm a bit biased in that regard.

You've had darker experiences from playing Doom (and, in my case, also Quake) than I have, @Sci, yet I still look back and wonder why I ever thought that immersing myself in a virtual environment in which approaching zombies were blown into bloody pieces with hand grenades, among other hellish underground scenes, was a sensible thing to do. Of course, as you point out, FPS games were new back then, and the paradigm was exciting to explore, so that's a mitigating factor.

Yeah I tend to refer to my experiences as "Deep Weird" rather than "Paranormal" because there remains - at least for some - the plausibility of a sensation being my imagination, a dream, or a confusion of dream and memory due to some experiences happening at a very young age.

For example I once had a hyper-realistic dream, probably the most realistic I've had before or since, of a demonic voice calling out from the TV room. I feel comfortable saying it's a dream because the voice kept asking for "more programs". I feel confident the powers of Evil wouldn't be motivated for my family to get extra cable channels.

I can understand the idea of exposing oneself to virtual horror so as to overcome fear during actual horror or otherwise scary/phobic situations. I imagine though that there are better ways to do that, or, at least, ways that avoid such exposure, such as mindfulness and cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT).

I think mindfulness can help, though I'd think CBT is better for those situations where you are dealing with an existing phobia?

But how does one prepare for the completely unexpected terror when events spin out of control? It seems to me fiction can be preparation for life in many ways.

I'd also still anyway prefer not to live in a world of horror or fear at all, as, I suspect, would most of us. Perhaps, even in that ideal world, some might believe in a postmortem hell for which they are bound, and want to prepare themselves for it, which I could understand too, although I'm not sure how well one could prepare for such a fate.

I think it's less preparing to be damned in the afterlife as much as IMO no one truly knows what the afterlife is like. I believe in Survival, but am somewhat skeptical of descriptions that claim to tell us how - in some universal way - what that afterlife will be like.

Perhaps it depends on where one's path leads, or at least where one wants to travel to, but in any case, there are of course shades of grey, not necessarily a strict binary of "wholesome" versus "unwholesome".

This is where I am at. If a romantic partner wants to watch a movie that features adultery, perhaps even a positive depiction of such betrayal, I can see them viewing such a thin[g] for its artistic merit. If this is a recurring interest I would get suspicious.

It's interesting because On a related note, regarding horror and violence I've been watching retrospectives on table top roleplaying recently, and something that comes up is horror gives you the chance to feel a visceral emotion while still knowing you are safe. Additionally players are okay with fantastical violence but gaslighting and adultery are seen as requiring warnings for the mental sake of players. I've also seen the same concern about any kind of sexual abuse being portrayed, while torture is often seen as expected to show up at least as some background in many games.

I suspect this is because there is fantastical violence that we know is fantastical, akin to the "danger" of riding a roller coaster. Something in many, whether due to mundane existence or something in the soul or past lives, seeks out this sort of thrill.

Likewise. I haven't said that it is - not, in any case, that you are necessarily implying here that I have. I've said instead that good people sometimes develop unwholesome ("bad") habits, and that unwholesome habits can lead to unwholesome consequences, even if we can't tangibly point to those consequences, or at least that a world in which unwholesome habits exist is in itself an unwholesome (undesirable) consequence in itself.

I guess to me watching horror - within reason and depending on subject matter - is not inherently unwholesome? Or at least not "unholy" in the sense of the act by necessity being Evil.

I actually am more suspicious of dramatic pieces that want us to sympathize with those who harm others over the victims, though even there I can see a purpose in asking what about society creates monsters out of humans...with the caveat that attention should be paid to people who endure as much or worse than human predators but instead choose to be Good...

[Laird]

Yeah I tend to refer to my experiences as "Deep Weird" rather than "Paranormal" because there remains - at least for some - the plausibility of a sensation being my imagination, a dream, or a confusion of dream and memory due to some experiences happening at a very young age.

Fair enough.

For example I once had a hyper-realistic dream, probably the most realistic I've had before or since, of a demonic voice calling out from the TV room. I feel comfortable saying it's a dream because the voice kept asking for "more programs". I feel confident the powers of Evil wouldn't be motivated for my family to get extra cable channels.

I've had a couple of similar experiences, except that I was definitely awake, and the message was the complete opposite of innocuous and benign. Given that I'm posting under my real identity, I won't say more than that.

I think mindfulness can help, though I'd think CBT is better for those situations where you are dealing with an existing phobia?

Probably, but are we necessarily making the distinction here between known (preexisting) and unknown (novel) fears in any case?

But how does one prepare for the completely unexpected terror when events spin out of control?

Isn't that just repeating the question we've already been proposing potential answers to? Or are you referring specifically to CBT there?

It seems to me fiction can be preparation for life in many ways.

Perhaps. I'm not so sure of that though, or at least that it's true to a meaningful enough extent to be a compelling element in this exchange.

The best preparation is practice. Fiction is in this sense theory, or, perhaps worse, vicarious practice. We best prepare for a maths exam, for example, by practising solving the type of maths problems likely to be on the exam, not (merely) by reading the theory of how to solve them (although that's important too), nor, perhaps worse, by (merely) watching others practice.

There's also another consideration that's worth affirming:

An immersion in fictional horror, violence, and gore, even if it might prepare us to better handle real-life fear(s), also has the potential to desensitise us to real-life horror and violence. Even the existing extent of real-life horror and violence already tends to have this effect: so many of us watching the endless wars and other horrors on the nightly news (sticking with what's now kind of anachronistic in the social media age) have become kind of numb to it, and not as outraged and motivated to act as we otherwise would have been. It's in this sense unwise to numb and pacify ourselves further by unnecessarily exposing ourselves to fictional horror.

I think it's less preparing to be damned in the afterlife as much as IMO no one truly knows what the afterlife is like. I believe in Survival, but am somewhat skeptical of descriptions that claim to tell us how - in some universal way - what that afterlife will be like.

Likewise. It's a bit of a side issue though, and I don't have anything much to add anyway, so I won't pursue it.

This is where I am at. If a romantic partner wants to watch a movie that features adultery, perhaps even a positive depiction of such betrayal, I can see them viewing such a thin[g] for its artistic merit. If this is a recurring interest I would get suspicious.

Yes, I do see valid scope for understanding the behaviour of others, including negative behaviour, through fiction, although, as you say in other words, there's a difference between satisfying one's curiosity, and obsession or perhaps even educating so as to emulate.

It's interesting because On a related note, regarding horror and violence I've been watching retrospectives on table top roleplaying recently, and something that comes up is horror gives you the chance to feel a visceral emotion while still knowing you are safe. Additionally players are okay with fantastical violence but gaslighting and adultery are seen as requiring warnings for the mental sake of players. I've also seen the same concern about any kind of sexual abuse being portrayed, while torture is often seen as expected to show up at least as some background in many games.

I suspect this is because there is fantastical violence that we know is fantastical, akin to the "danger" of riding a roller coaster. Something in many, whether due to mundane existence or something in the soul or past lives, seeks out this sort of thrill.

Perhaps here the concern I expressed above about desensitisation is vindicated to an extent.

I guess to me watching horror - within reason and depending on subject matter - is not inherently unwholesome? Or at least not "unholy" in the sense of the act by necessity being Evil.

I do think that there is a transference of valence in watching or otherwise consuming something that is itself unwholesome or that at least portrays unwholesomeness. It's of course not to the same degree as the act being portrayed.

You and Ian have suggested that there are potential justifications for viewing/consuming it anyway, but I'm not convinced that they are sound.

I actually am more suspicious of dramatic pieces that want us to sympathize with those who harm others over the victims, though even there I can see a purpose in asking what about society creates monsters out of humans...with the caveat that attention should be paid to people who endure as much or worse than human predators but instead choose to be Good...

That's fair.

The best preparation is practice. Fiction is in this sense theory, or, perhaps worse, vicarious practice. We best prepare for a maths exam, for example, by practising solving the type of maths problems likely to be on the exam, not (merely) by reading the theory of how to solve them (although that's important too), nor, perhaps worse, by (merely) watching others practice.

There's also another consideration that's worth affirming:

An immersion in fictional horror, violence, and gore, even if it might prepare us to better handle real-life fear(s), also has the potential to desensitise us to real-life horror and violence. Even the existing extent of real-life horror and violence already tends to have this effect: so many of us watching the endless wars and other horrors on the nightly news (sticking with what's now kind of anachronistic in the social media age) have become kind of numb to it, and not as outraged and motivated to act as we otherwise would have been. It's in this sense unwise to numb and pacify ourselves further by unnecessarily exposing ourselves to fictional horror.

If I may take the liberty of selecting a segment of your post, it reminds me of something else, pointing in an opposite though also parallel direction.

If I might explain, you were talking about desensitisation for one, and the need for actual practice too. It reminded me of a conversation I observed recently while watching a live stream of someone walking around a place (in the U.S.) where I used to live. There was a comment from one viewer that their family would not visit that place until the problem of violence was dealt with and resolved.

In this case, watching the media had caused an exaggerated and overblown sense of fear and mistrust. The video stream itself showed someone walking around a quiet and peaceful area, with occasional random and spontaneous interactions with passers-by. None of it reflected the viewer's family's fears.

This reflects my own experience. I used to live in a major city in England, which had certain known rough areas, where crime and violence was part of its image. In addition there was a nationwide unrest and wave of rioting while I lived there and buildings were smashed and burned by rioters in streets adjacent to my then home. But when I walked daily through those areas, I didn't experience any crime, not even witness hints of it. Even in the aftermath of the riot, I walked around the next day and there was a warm and friendly atmosphere. Perhaps some tension had built up and been defused, released.

But watching these things on the TV news, the natural reaction would be, "I wouldn't want to live there, nor even visit". But that would be a misunderstanding. Sure, there were better places to be, but the impressions we receive from media don't tell anything like the whole story, perhaps they cannot, which is where the key word 'practice' come in. It is necessary to go to places, be among them, to live there, in order to be able to understand.

Sorry about the side-track.