Death is the end

I never understood that quote, Sci. What do you think it means ?

I kind of like the open endedness of the quote.

For me the mystery enriches us. Imagine if we knew, from the moment of our birth, exactly what happens to us after we die in this reality. How much art, mythology, and even progress would've been dulled?

Even our suffering the loss of others can be beautiful, especially if it makes us realize the depths of our love for someone who while around seemed vexing.


However this isn't meant to give succor to the silly "skeptics" who praise themselves for supposedly accepting death. I think many of them fear damnation or just the idea that the closure of the world extends beyond that which is sensory available.

Who’s Afraid of Life After Death?

The evidence for an afterlife is sufficiently strong and compelling that an unbiased person ought to conclude that materialism is a false theory. Yet the academy refuses to examine the evidence, and clings to materialism as if it were a priori true, instead of a posteriori false. I suggest several explanations for the monumental failure of curiosity on the part of academia. First, there is deep confusion between the concepts of evidence and proof. Second, materialism functions as a powerful paradigm that structures the shape of scientific explanations, but is not itself open to question. The third explanation is intellectual arrogance, as the possible existence of disembodied intelligence threatens the materialistic belief that the educated human brain is the highest form of intelligence in existence. Finally, there is a social taboo against belief in an afterlife, as our whole way of life is predicated on materialism and might collapse if near-death experiences, particularly the life review, were accepted as fact.

My opinion isn't as strong as Grossman but he does show some insight into the "skeptical" mind of the materialist evangelicals.

I've heard that some people fear their own death, but I can't remember a time that I did. But perhaps my childhood Spiritually Transformative Experience has a bearing on that, although at around 11-12, it's so early in my life that there is no way of knowing if it did make the difference, it *was* incredibly profound, and it does bring me a great deal of comfort.

All I know is that today, I simply don't fear death. If there is something afterwards - particularly if it's interesting - that's great, and if there isn't, it won't matter anyway. The same cannot be said for the dying part though, I've never done that, so I'd really prefer not to have an unpleasant experience as my life draws to a close.

I think the sudden blast of "Why am I having this experience?" presents a major puzzle. You know, you're shaving in the mirror or something, thinking about life, and suddenly all the tumblers come together and you have that brief experience of "What the fuck am I doing...." and just as suddenly, this profound feeling of some awareness, of something about 'you' being 'here' slips through your fingers. That is another of the experiences that lets me keep the door open to something else going on.

For me-
I don't fit any of the three reason listed previously.

I believe in the continuation of consciousness for one very simple reason, and that alone-

The evidence is so damn compelling it would be irrational NOT to believe in it.

And FYI, I didn't believe until the last few years. What changed? I actually freed up the time to do the necessary research (thousands of hours) and then it was obvious.

"In Dr Braithwaite's paper that I linked to he does not refer to the brainstem."

Jeez.. and why do you think that is ? I'll give you a hint, because if he did refer to it, his so called "refutation" of Van Lommel's paper would be even weaker than it is now.

Thanks for the link BTW which proves to me (with gold knobs on) you don't have a clue what you're discussing here. You've just shot yourself in the foot.

 How brain death occurs
Brain death can occur when the blood and/or oxygen supply to the brain is stopped. This can be caused by:

• cardiac arrest – when the heart stops beating and the brain is starved of oxygen
  

If you look at the bolded word cardiac arrest, this criteria was met in Van Lommel's study. In cardiac arrest, the brainstem
ceases to function within seconds and that's why doctors can intubate patients and they don't gag, they can shine a light on the pupils of the eye and they don't react...there is nothing going on in the brain. There isn't some deep rooted brain activity as proposed by Brathwaite. When the brainstem stops that's it.  You can't have any consciousness without a brain stem (admits arch sceptic GM Woerlee who I have had many, many exchanges with)

Braithwaite is a psychologist (probably a good one too) but he is not on a par with MD's who have carried out detailed long term prospective studies on real patients. He probably spent less than 10 hours on his "paper, " Van Lommel spent more than 10 years !

I am a lay person, I've never pretended otherwise but I'm not publishing papers or making claims. I'm simply reiterating the words of the doctors that have and like any one else I am entitled to do that.  

 Leuders said > If you think entire brain function is totally offline whilst someone is experiencing an NDE it is your job to prove it. No such evidence exists

Proof is only available in mathematics. Your (own goal) link should answer that question for you or you can listen to the words of possibly the foremost brain function expert (it's debateable of course) Peter Fenwick.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlXK68tMm7Y  Go to 8.31

I just want to add that I entirely understand Jason Braithwaite's position regarding the meaning and interpretation of NDE.
He would lose his job and grant funding if he said anything different.

As evidence, I would also add that there is a Neuro Surgeon who actually had an NDE. He understands all the standard arguments against "the afterlife" but now that he has experienced it, he is totally convinced that he and all of his colleges have been in error all these decades.

This is an expert. He knows of what he speaks in terms of brain physiology.

For those who don't know: His name is Eben Alexander. His book is- Proof of Heaven (followed by 3 others)

Edit- and then I noticed a new thread on this exact topic was created 10 hours ago.. 

Tim I an unhappy with life... would be nice if an afterlife existed! I would love to be on board. But I will not fall into the trap of wishful thinking.

You don't think fear of being caught in wishful thinking or fraud can potentially bias you against absorbing new information or possibilities?

You don't think fear of being caught in wishful thinking or fraud can potentially bias you against absorbing new information or possibilities?

Yeah I think people forget how many people *don't* want there to be an afterlife.

Even proponents IMO lean toward particular possibilities over others. There is, after all, the possibility of multiple kinds of afterlives. Some seem wonderful, others dull to terrifying...though the latter seems to be more a human construct at least as far as picking the right religion in the "Belief Lottery" is concerned.

Yeah I think people forget how many people *don't* want there to be an afterlife.

Even proponents IMO lean toward particular possibilities over others. There is, after all, the possibility of multiple kinds of afterlives. Some seem wonderful, others dull to terrifying...though the latter seems to be more a human construct at least as far as picking the right religion in the "Belief Lottery" is concerned.

Reported (quite) often is some kind of grey/dull area. A friend of mine saw it and it was very unpleasant. Fortunately he also saw a very beautiful place. Did he take a wrong turn or was someone trying to tell him something. I think I'd prefer oblivion to that grey place and he would have done as well.

Reported (quite) often is some kind of grey/dull area. A friend of mine saw it and it was very unpleasant. Fortunately he also saw a very beautiful place. Did he take a wrong turn or was someone trying to tell him something. I think I'd prefer oblivion to that grey place and he would have done as well.

Jurgen Ziewe and others have described a gray place and views it as one of the many layers or domains that comprise the dimensions between the 3D and the various higher domains of the afterlife.

Jurgen says the grey zone is actually a jumping off point to get to many of the other levels. Jurgen describes as generally a place one transits, not inhabits.

OTOH- there are reported crappy places that are dark and dank and not pleasant at all. Of course no one would "want" to be there, but some end up there and eventually move on from it. See the movie Astral City or read the book it was based on "Our Home", if you want to see an example.

Jurgen Ziewe and others have described a gray place as view it as one of the many layers or domains that comprise the dimensions, between the 3D and the various higher domains of the afterlife.

Jurgen says the grey zone is actually a jumping off point to get to many of the other levels. Jurgen describes as a place one transits, not inhabits.

OTOH- there are reported crappy places that are dark and dank and not pleasant at all. Of course no one would "want" to be there, but some end up there and eventually move on from it. See the movie Astral City or read the book it was based on "Our Home", if you want to see an example.

That's interesting, Jkmac. I have no reason to doubt Jurgen's out of body experiences but personally the only ones that interest me are those that occur during cardiac arrest when the brain is off line.

That's interesting, Jkmac. I have no reason to doubt Jurgen's out of body experiences but personally the only ones that interest me are those that occur during cardiac arrest when the brain is off line.

It's funny, because the only one that you are interested in, is the same that others will never believe, because they claim you can't ascertain when and if the brain is offline... Not trying to poke fun. Just pointing out the difficulty in "proving" any of this stuff to the general public.

It's funny, because the only one that you are interested in, is the same that others will never believe, because they claim you can't ascertain when and if the brain is offline... Not trying to poke fun. Just pointing out the difficulty in "proving" any of this stuff to the general public.

No worries, jkmac. Yes, they do claim that. But of course they have to. Otherwise they would have to abandon their dogma.

There are many, many cases where it is quite obvious at what point ( in the cardiac arrest) the observations occurred. They get round this in the way that Blackmore does, by just saying that it couldn't have... and completely misquoting cases such as the dentures man by listening to mischievous pseudo sceptics who were not there and have an ideological agenda.