Commentary thread for tim's "NDE's" thread

Van Lommel's study yielded 18%, Raf.  Sabom's much higher. The 10% figure is too low but my guess as to why most patients don't report an NDE when they've been resuscitated is that the drugs they were given, wipe or restrict their memories of it (Parnia states this). Also cardiac arrest is a massive insult to the brain and any "insult" to the brain causes memory loss (according to the medical experts).

Yes, I think the frequency is between 10 to 20% or more, depending on the study. Normally cardiac arrest imposes brings a pretty huge hit on memory, I've heard patients are often unable to recall decently what happened right before it, and after regaining consciousness it's all a blur. Yet, those who somehow remember their NDEs usually have really clear and durable memories of the event. Strange and fascinating.

I agree Tim. Apparently we all dream every time we sleep. I never remember mine or even that I had a dream. I often think the question “why aren’t there more” misses the point really.

That's a great point, isn't it. I keep forgetting to remember that, Obiwan (no pun intended)

Yes, I think the frequency is between 10 to 20% or more, depending on the study. Normally cardiac arrest imposes brings a pretty huge hit on memory, I've heard patients are often unable to recall recently what happened right before it, and after regaining consciousness it's all a blur. Yet, those who somehow remember their NDEs usually have really clear and durable memories of the event. Strange and fascinating.

 Parnia's first 'Aware' study revealed that about 40% had some kind of  "awareness" during cardiac arrest. I don't think they had the resources, or the time, to pursue those patients further (to wait until they could remember more) but I'd like to bet there were a few interesting reports in there, somewhere.

Mr James G, formerly a member of the British Army's first Royal Tank Regiment, experienced a veridical OBE during the period he was lying comatose in the ICU, after a very serious operation for the treatment of a brain aneurysm. He was kind enough to respond to my interest and answer some questions about his experience, as well as giving me permission to publish it here.  

I had a bad near fatal brain bleed when I was 27...I was a British Soldier at the time in Germany...after saving me...and when I was in intensive care...I was out of my body and out of the intensive care suit. The Military had brought one of my older brothers over...just in case I did die.  I was floating next to him in the hospital corridor and I know what he said to the nurse and what she said to him...and who was down the corridor. The red light was flashing at the top of the door (the door to the intensive care unit) in the corridor.

The first thing I thought was, "This is weird, what's going on?"  I could see, think and I was me. It was like looking out of a ball of energy. I saw myself (my physical body inside the unit) through the window in the corridor...but I wasn't bothered about that "thing" lying there. So I started to read about such things. And over the years I have changed my outlook about this planet and about what matters in life.

I asked James what would he say to sceptics who would try and tell him that it didn't really happen like that. You weren't "actually" out of your body, you just imagined that you were ? He replied....

Well.. I was out of my body next to my older brother (who he couldn't have known was there) who is also an ex soldier...they had brought him over to Germany just in case I did die. He was saying to the nurse, "What is happening ?"...and she said to him..."We think your brother is trying to breath on his own!"

As I looked about, I saw the red light on the outside of the door at the top (to the intensive care unit) flashing red ...and down the corridor was my RSM (Regimental Serjeant Major) and two others in suits...looking towards my brother. I could see myself (my physical body) from my vantage point (outside) through the windows into the room (from the corridor)...I knew what it was (my body) but I wasn't bothered as I was separate from it (my body).

In fact the first thing I said (thought) to myself was, "What is going on? this is weird!" It was like looking out of a ball or an orb as I understand it!.  It has made me a more spiritual person...not religious.

I thanked him again and then expressed my desire to get this experience down in detail and post it on a psi forum, whilst assuring him that it was perfectly okay if he didn't want to.

Hi,  I wasn't out of my body that long. Everything I have put down is as it is. ……They (The Army) had brought my older brother over to Kassel in Germany as they (always) bring someone over if you're fighting for your life, and they think you will not survive. Obviously I didn't know my brother was there. Anyway, I was on a ventilator (in a coma) in the hospital and not in a good way.

This was after the operation that saved me. I had been visited by friends and colleagues from my regiment the First Royal Tank Regiment, and I was told this later. I had had a burst brain aneurysm. But when I had this experience of being 'out of my body', I was next to my brother in the hospital corridor, outside my hospital (intensive care) room.

It was like looking out of something like a ball of energy. The first thing I thought was, "What is going on? This is weird!" Then I saw my brother (S). He stands about 6ft 1in and it was as if I was looking down from possibly about a foot taller (meaning above) than him. He was saying to this nurse (who was) to his left....but from my point of view from my right.....

….he said, "What is happening ?"... the nurse said, "We think your brother is trying to breath on his own!" I saw also down the corridor my RSM and two other people in suits. They were looking towards my brother and the nurse and the door into the hospital room (where I was in the ICU). Then I glanced at the red light flashing above the unit door. And I saw myself..... my body... lying in the far left corner of the room through the window in the corridor.

I knew it was my body but I wasn't bothered about that. I could see... but it was different than seeing with my eyes. It was as I said, as if I was looking out of a ball of energy, and I could see as if normally. I was thinking normally as well. And I could tell I was me... my own personality. The only thing that was absent was breathing and respiration.

Then nothing. I must have gone back into my body. That is it all. It wasn't long. But I will never forget this. I spoke later about this with my brother and said what I saw and heard. And what I think had occurred. Being that I had left my body, I had felt religious, but I have since become a more spiritual kind of person and rejected religion. I have become a more caring person. And I pass on to others my experience and what I think and believe now.

Please could you clarify a couple of things ? You said it wasn't an accident. Is there anything more you can say about that ? Secondly, did I read you correctly, that you confirmed all this with your brother ? 

Yes, even though I had an aneurysm...I never knew (obviously) And I was having a drink with fellow soldiers when after leaving the A sqn Bar...an NCO (Non commissioned officer) who was coming down the stairs with me...pushed my head, and it (accidentally) hit the wall...and what was wrong (the aneurysm) burst.

(James advanced some personal philosophical thoughts here) What I believe is that when it is your time....you may possibly see other spirits who welcome you or (you'll) maybe see a tunnel.

Yes, I discussed it with my brother and he concurred with me about what he and the nurse had said. I believe we are a small fraction of the infinite. Some call this the original spirit?

(My brain hemorrhage occurred on the night of the last Saturday of October in 1997 in Barkar Barracks, Paderborn Germany . I was in D sqn The First Royal Tank Regiment. Thanks. Mr James G.


Many thinks to James G !

Very interesting, have you interviewed Mr. James G. yourself?

Very interesting, have you interviewed Mr. James G. yourself?

Yes but not face to face. Is that important ?

Yes but not face to face. Is that important ?

No just a curiosity, it must be really a rare experience interviewing many different  NDEers. Italian medic Davide Vaccarin became interested and nearly a proponent just by interviewing people for his university thesis!

hearing from the mouths of the experiencers themselves is something I would like to do someday.

it must be really a rare experience interviewing many different  NDEers.

I'm not a researcher, Raf nor do I want to be thought of as one. I've just tried to help get this forum going and it just happens that I'm interested in NDE's. I think more and more people are realising how fascinating they are.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic...rlife.html

An interesting NDE, but the article contains the usual skeptical attempts to explain away these experiences:

Thanks, Raimo. I saw this a few days ago but couldn't get the details.

And for an explanation, Natalie (the science correspondent) drags up the rat study again. Entirely predictable. All that sceptics ever have to do, is just come up with something, anything and repeat it a few times and it takes on a life of it's own. 

scientists have started inching closer to explaining what is happening in the brain when the heart stops.

When they researchers induced cardiac arrest in nine animals, they saw a burst of brain activity in the moments that would normally precede death.
 
And not just any activity, but in a dying brain they say 'a widespread, transient surge of highly synchronized brain activity that had features associated with a highly aroused brain.' 
In other words, in those first moments after the body dies, the brain is behaving as if it's very much alive, having complex thoughts, and is perhaps even 'hyperactive.'   

The air traffic controller he refers to is Alan Pring (The Truth in the light)

Although Fenwick says that “he’s an air traffic controller, in fact”, he’s plainly mistaken, as Pring is clearly a pilot. 
Air Traffic Controllers are usually ground based. 

 “So I find negative NDEs—all the ones I’ve studied personally—fall into that category. Not in the category of real NDEs.” “Excuse me,” I interrupt. “But this is you, Dr. Fenwick, making that diagnosis, deciding what is a real, solid death experience and what is either temporary psychosis or simply the result of extremely low blood sugar. To say that a true death experience is invariably joyous, to argue that if it’s scary or traumatic, it’s not a real experience but just a by-product of a drop in blood sugar, is a pretty arbitrary way of separating the real from the imaginary death voyage.” He has the grace to laugh. “I’m making the diagnosis,” says Dr. Fenwick. “I’m using my science to make the diagnosis. But you’re absolutely right. I like what you’re saying!”

I think it’s interesting how Peter Fenwick is capable of such contrary thinking.