Commentary thread for tim's "NDE's" thread

Excellent stuff, Tim! Where did you get it? And was it already in English?  - smithy

Der Tod ist nicht das Ende (Death is not the end)

Experiencers are forced to utilize various rationalizations to somehow deal with them, categorized as including "I needed that to turn my life around", "It was only a problem in my brain", and "I must have done something bad". 

It's a sobering paper, isn't it. I don't know what to think; it seems unlikely that the people who reported those particular negative/hellish NDE's deserved that (if that's how it works). We could speculate forever but if there is another world (And I believe there is) I certainly don't think 'sainthood' is a requirement to get there (I'm not saying you think that BTW) but I don't think it's (is there a hell, who goes and why ?) an answerable question.

Anyway, Barbara Rommer may be somewhat simplistic and pollyanaish when considering this type of NDE. It doesn't look like there is yet any plausible agreed-to reassuring interpretation of hellish NDEs.

I agree with the second sentence but I don't think Barbara Rommer was like that. You can see her here.

http://ndeinfo.wmthost.com/#NDEmovies click on movies and scroll down to the second from the bottom

A and E Special "Beyond death" part 1 April 2000, NDE interviews. go to 44.30. Just before that, there's a nice interview with Pam Reynolds (and Dr Michael Sabom). Pam's grandmother Marie was a wild woman (according to a report from Judy Bacharach) who was married seven times but she was 'there' waiting for Pam (apparently). And it certainly didn't seem like hell.

Der Tod ist nicht das Ende (Death is not the end)

I have looked into the German version.
My impression is that is has been translated pretty correctly.
It comes across as a genuine, positive view about NDE's.

Cheers - Smithy

Nickell, the paranormal skeptic, says stories of shared-death experiences also rest on a flimsy foundation.

“That’s the problem with all of them – they’re all anecdotal evidence and science doesn’t deal with anecdotal evidence,” Nickell says.

Going way back to a post in this thread by Karmaling in late November, which obviously I'm very late seeing, but I had to dig up this quote by Mr. Nickell. 

Really? A "hand-wave" away of the evidence on the old "ancedotes" ground is the best this guy had to say? I mean he's got a point, but only that they don't lead to conclusive proof on their own. Nobody's disagreeing there. However, he goes a step further and just tosses any predictive power behind them as a growing area of evidence straight out the window!

Near-death experience: In heaven you don't need shoes




An additional short interview with Christine Stein and the opinion of a sceptical doctor, Frank Erbguth to give some balance towards the sceptical approach to explaining NDE's.
 
Christine Stein's heart stopped for twenty-three minutes. To save her, the surgeons manually massaged her heart through her open chest. "Hurry up, we have to save this little girl !" they shout.  During the resuscitation, Christine watches it from above.

Excellent stuff, Tim! Thanks so much!  Smithy

Excellent stuff, Tim! Thanks so much!  Smithy

Thanks, Smithy unfortunately I have had to delete the post maybe permanently as I can't find the source (I thought I'd made  a note of it but I must not have)

Thanks, Smithy unfortunately I have had to delete the post maybe permanently as I can't find the source (I thought I'd made  a note of it but I must not have)

As a suggestion, you can enter in large enough snippets of text from the article into a search engine, perhaps in quotes? That way, you can see what websites the have the same exact snippets of text, allowing you to eventually track down the source webpage.

From http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/ee...ost-121499:

Reasons why the hallucination theory fails horribly

1) Shared Death Experiences

https://www.youtube.com/embed/k1BuI-DugnU?wmode=opaque

2) The Blind seeing for the first time during NDE's, and the deaf hearing for the first time

https://www.youtube.com/embed/azIh8gsXVRg?wmode=opaque

3)  Veridical NDE's

People floating outside their bodies (often to other rooms) to report conversations and events which later check out as accurate.  There are a great deal of these on record

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Q1ikGgzHITg?wmode=opaque

4)  These events are life altering.  People change permanently.  They report a non-existence of time.  Those are two (there are many more) rather bizarrely common reportedly themes of NDE's.  This doesnt fit the notion that they are Hallucinations, which are disorganized and bizarre and rarely make sense, and generally have no typical after effects.  In contrast, NDE's are reported as being more real and clear than everyday real life, and makes every day existence seem like a mere dream.

5)  People very frequently encounter dead people.  Notice, theyre not meeting living people.  Strange coincidence if its a dream that all the people they run into just so happen to be dead. And why are people hallucinating something which is like what we would think the afterlife would be?  Why are there profound and intelligent moral lessons which are learned?  Why this undescribable state of love expressed during these expriences?

6)  Tons of reports of people given information about the future, which eventually came true

https://www.youtube.com/embed/EydWO5vqT80?wmode=opaque

https://www.youtube.com/embed/aNdTIlAbv-A?wmode=opaque

7)  Miraculous healings which people were told would occur during their NDE's, and actually occur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPmtfW3BIGs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X7b5pc-20k&t=219s

Skeptics like to offer up explanations which (at best) cover about 10 percent of the facts

[To eliminate confusion after moving this post to the commentary thread, leadville was responding to this post of tim's in the original thread --Laird]

"This occurred again as he arrived at the hospital on the helipad (when he was dead) and finally in the operating room where he was able to observe events and read the thoughts of the doctors (they were not vocalised) which he later was able to verify (apparently)" 

When he appeared to be clinically dead.  

"This occurred again as he arrived at the hospital on the helipad (when he was dead) and finally in the operating room where he was able to observe events and read the thoughts of the doctors (they were not vocalised) which he later was able to verify (apparently)" 

When he appeared to be clinically dead.  

Edited : He did say he was dead, Leadville. He had to be defibrillated in the OR which meant his heart had stopped.  Clinically dead, really dead, very dead, does it matter as regards the state of the person's consciousness ?