Commentary thread for tim's "NDE's" thread

I don't have Ian Wilson's book to hand, to check, but didn't we cover that one...

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/threads/du...post-56208

but didn't we cover that one...

No. Not really but not to worry.

[To eliminate confusion after moving this post to the commentary thread, diverdown was responding to this post of tim's in the original thread --Laird]

Yes Tim. 

How can materialists explain the brain creating such an experience? Where does that come from? How would the brain know how to do that, at that specific time? And why? What evolutionary advantage does that serve? How would that even be created throughout evolution?

But where was I? For a few moments, I froze with fright, worried that whatever was holding me up on the ceiling would suddenly let me drop. Eventually, though, I relaxed, watching in rapt amazement as the surgeons and nurses worked on my body. "Is that really me, or is this really me?" I wondered. "How can I be in both places at once?" Suddenly, I became aware of a shift in my perspective as my field of vision expanded. I was still in the operating theatre, but at the same time I could see my mother and sister sitting on a sofa in our family home, thousands of miles away in New Delhi - where I'd grown up.

The scene was vivid and detailed. My sister was wearing blue jeans and a red sweater and my mother a green sari and a green sweater. "What should we make for dinner?" my sister asked?

"It's cold outside," said my mother, we should make hot soup. Lentil sounds good." I was so focused on them that the sudden sound of instruments clanking in the operating theatre gave me a start.

Turning my head to the left, I found I could still see and hear the scene below me. "This guy's a mess. He's lucky to be here. Give me more swabs," said the surgeon to a nurse. I was now seriously frightened. What was going on? Would my untethered consciousness ever get back into my body - or was I destined to roam through eternity as a spirit? Was I dead? I felt like an astronaut who'd left his spacesuit, only to find that a suit was unnecessary to begin with. With rising panic, I looked back and forth at the two scenes - until both started to fade like a fast-setting sun.

From Dying to Wake up by Dr Rajiv Parti (with Paul Perry)

Hello tim, 

New to the forum, but two questions about this account 

1. Was the second scene he was witnessing happening at the same time (the present) as his operation was? Or was it a memory of the past he was witnessing? I can't tell solely from the text alone

2. What exactly happened in the experience after the two scenes "faded like setting suns"? Was that a shift in his experience or the moment he came to?

Dr Rajiv Parti was chief anaesthetist at Bakersfield Heart Hospital in California when he experienced exactly the same phenomenon that had been reported to him many times from patients under his care. He outlines the experience of someone he calls 'The Frozen Man' below, along with his own out of body experience during an operation to save his life from a severe infection (sepsis). 

Sceptics should bear in mind Parti's previous scepticism and 'conversion' after actually having the experience himself. 

 

Wonderful and entirely credible story, Tim! Thanks - Smithy

Hello tim, 

New to the forum, but two questions about this account 

1. Was the second scene he was witnessing happening at the same time (the present) as his operation was? Or was it a memory of the past he was witnessing? I can't tell solely from the text alone

2. What exactly happened in the experience after the two scenes "faded like setting suns"? Was that a shift in his experience or the moment he came to?

Welcome to the forum !

The scene of the operation from above and the scene of his mother and sister in Delhi occurred one after the other but also a little later simultaneously (apparently).

What happened next was that he unfortunately found himself on the "rim of hell" and experienced some rather ghastly paraphernalia which I prefer not to focus on because whatever it is, it is ...or is not, if you see what I mean. We can't, of course, know with any real certainty the nature of this other dimension.   

It's the veridical out of body experiences that interest me personally.

Welcome to the forum !

The scene of the operation from above and the scene of his mother and sister in Delhi occurred one after the other but also a little later simultaneously (apparently).

What happened next was that he unfortunately found himself on the "rim of hell" and experienced some rather ghastly paraphernalia which I prefer not to focus on because whatever it is, it is ...or is not, if you see what I mean. We can't, of course, know with any real certainty the nature of this other dimension.   

It's the veridical out of body experiences that interest me personally.

Thanks, 

So the scene with his mother and sister was third person and was happening at the same time as he was having the experience? 

And same here. Amongst other things too, but the OBEs are one of the hardest things to explain away

Thanks, 

So the scene with his mother and sister was third person and was happening at the same time as he was having the experience? 

And same here. Amongst other things too, but the OBEs are one of the hardest things to explain away

No worries. He was able to look down from the ceiling in the OR and also when he turned his "head" to the right (I think he said) he could see his mother and sister (or so he claimed). I've read of such a scenario many times (of course that doesn't prove anything) ...he did however claim that this observation was correct (the clothes they were wearing and what they said) What is more evidential is him hearing and remembering the dirty joke during the operation because he wasn't light on anaesthesia according to the surgeons/docs.

Professor Wilfried Kuhn, is chief physician at the Neurological Clinic in the Leopoldina Hospital in Schweinfurt, and has worked there for over 20 years.  He has an interest in the borderline between science and spirituality. In 1977 he read Dr Raymond Moody's book "Life After Life," the reports of people who had been clinically dead and were revived to speak of their experiences.  These people typically saw themselves lying on the operating table, watching doctors fight to save their lives, experienced passing through a tunnel towards a bright light sometimes accompanied by or meeting deceased relatives.  And they returned because they were told their life's work was not finished. 

Sceptics say it's 'esoteric nonsense,' all medically explainable as hallucinations and brain processes.  For Kuhn, however, near-death experiences are an indication that consciousness can exist without matter. He has studeid the phenomenon for many years and in his opinion, they cannot be fully explained neurobiologically. 

<snip>
the interview was conducted by Susanne Wiedemann

Excellent stuff, Tim! Where did you get it? And was it already in English?  - smithy

................................................

The near-death experiences are marked by feelings of happiness, the feeling of not needing to be afraid of death. Are there any accounts of people going into a negative kind of world?  I do not like to talk about hell now. . .

Kuhn: There are actually such cases. The American doctor Barbara Rommer has dealt with this. She has come to the conclusion that these experiences were ultimately also positive for the people.  They were fearful/ scared at first, but then they were motivated to change their lives positively.

................................................

Nancy Evans Bush and Bruce Greyson did another study of distressing NDEs, summarized here. They found that these consisted of void-like or otherwise relatively mildly distressing experiences along with a minority of truly hellish NDEs. 

Experiencers are forced to utilize various rationalizations to somehow deal with them, categorized as including "I needed that to turn my life around", "It was only a problem in my brain", and "I must have done something bad". 

"...(some) experiencers have difficulty comprehending or integrating terrifying NDEs. These people, years later, still struggle with the existential implications of the NDE, “I had an experience which has remained with me for 29 years. . . . It has left a horror in my mind and I have never spoken about it until now.” And, “After all these years, the nightmare remains vivid in my mind.” “For some reason, [31 years later] all the memories are back and vivid. . . . It’s like living it all over again, and I don’t want to. I thought I had it all resolved and in its place, but I’m having a really bad time trying to put it away this time." 

A notorious reluctance to report a distressing NDE may lead to long-lasting trauma for individuals as well as limiting the data on occurrence. A literature review covering thirty years of research concludes that as many as one in five NDEs may be predominantly distressing."

Bush and Greyson try to find a positive note by pointing out that
  

"As a growing number of studies make clear, even the most devastating life event, like the grit that creates the oyster's pearl, is often what propels people to become more true to themselves, take on new challenges, and view life from a wider perspective. This is a promising and as yet underdeveloped approach for clinicians working with those who report struggling after a distressing NDE." 

Anyway, Barbara Rommer may be somewhat simplistic and pollyanaish when considering this type of NDE. It doesn't look like there is yet any plausible agreed-to reassuring interpretation of hellish NDEs.

Excellent stuff, Tim! Where did you get it? And was it already in English?  - smithy

Thanks, Smithy. No it was in German. I'm fairly sure I've got it about right but there could be some nuances possibly that I've missed or a mistake. If anyone knows that Professor Kuhn is actually a materialist who believes NDE's are simply hallucinations, I'd be grateful to know