Becoming insecure over NDE Research

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far . Very thought provoking responses , helping with the Additional ways of thinking about things , helping me see things differently, and I feel the support , so thank you.

For me , I have been lucky enough or blessed enough to have some really special family members and loved ones who mean everything to me . Imagining never seeing them again or that life has no real deeper purpose ; is terrifyingly horrific to me . So I ruminate and obsessively read and listen and engage with all I can on tbis topic, and all the other mentioned ones too, mediumship, past lives , death bed visions , every topic covered on these forums . 

But until I find something that convinces me or it’s been proven scientifically or something , I’ll always obsessively doubt or something .

Despite my intellect knowing or believing the evidence supports survival… “feeling-wise,” I still doubt, worry, etc.

NDE's don't tell us anything for, or against, an afterlife. You are right to be undecided about whether there is an afterlife - because it's the wrong question.

NDE's instead tell us important stuff about experience, or what most people might call life.

It's far too convenient for them to push the meaning and importance of anomalous human experiences to the very end of life - in fact beyond life. That perpetuated narrative is a clear lie, and misdirects people not to bother questioning experience itself right here.

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far . Very thought provoking responses , helping with the Additional ways of thinking about things , helping me see things differently, and I feel the support , so thank you.

For me , I have been lucky enough or blessed enough to have some really special family members and loved ones who mean everything to me . Imagining never seeing them again or that life has no real deeper purpose ; is terrifyingly horrific to me . So I ruminate and obsessively read and listen and engage with all I can on tbis topic, and all the other mentioned ones too, mediumship, past lives , death bed visions , every topic covered on these forums . 

But until I find something that convinces me or it’s been proven scientifically or something , I’ll always obsessively doubt or something .

Despite my intellect knowing or believing the evidence supports survival… “feeling-wise,” I still doubt, worry, etc.

I think very few people are that certain about what death is - perhaps only those few (not me) who have had extensive personal experience via mediums etc. However, I think most of us here have reasonably come to terms with the fact that we and our loved ones will eventually die, and that what follows will be what our parents (say) have already gone through. This place (and the old Skeptiko) can be an uncomfortable place for people who want to BELIEVE (i.e. use it rather like a church) because there is waay too much noodling around with disturbing ideas of different sorts. I find coming here far more pleasant than going to church (which I did until age 20) because I don't have to will myself to believe stuff that I don't think is true.

I think there is excellent evidence that we did not evolve by natural selection, and that is important because it means that we did not get here in a random way - something seems to have created this setup, and is probably still maintaining it.

David

NDE's don't tell us anything for, or against, an afterlife. You are right to be undecided about whether there is an afterlife - because it's the wrong question.

NDE's instead tell us important stuff about experience, or what most people might call life.

It's far too convenient for them to push the meaning and importance of anomalous human experiences to the very end of life - in fact beyond life. That perpetuated narrative is a clear lie, and misdirects people not to bother questioning experience itself right here.

NDEs do tell us about an after-life in a sense, the soul reality beyond this psychophysical reality ~ that there is a continuation of life and consciousness, even if the nature of the higher reality cannot be properly known without fully exiting this reality proper.

It's not a lie so much as we just tend to take this physical reality for granted... it's normalized in perception ~ we become a fish in water, unable to perceive how strange this reality actually is to exist as it is. We end up blinding ourselves, because we stop questioning at some point.

NDEs do tell us about an after-life in a sense, the soul reality beyond this psychophysical reality ~ that there is a continuation of life and consciousness, even if the nature of the higher reality cannot be properly known without fully exiting this reality proper.

It's not a lie so much as we just tend to take this physical reality for granted... it's normalized in perception ~ we become a fish in water, unable to perceive how strange this reality actually is to exist as it is. We end up blinding ourselves, because we stop questioning at some point.

NDE'rs were not dead (after-life), they were dying... the NDE / NDE OBE tells us important stuff about experience (some people call life).

Yes, it's a deliberate lie. A clever guy 2000 years ago worked this out, and other clever people have been saying similar things both before, and since.

NDE'rs were not dead (after-life), they were dying... the NDE / NDE OBE tells us important stuff about experience (some people call life).

Uh... the after-life isn't death, either ~ it's just a different state of beingness, of life. NDErs' bodies are clinically dead ~ brain and heart have no vital symptoms, no heartbeat, no pulse, flat-lining, brain activity gone if not vague and erratic as cells are dying with nothing organizing them. The NDEr clearly reports being explicitly outside of their body ~ they are "dead" as in their bodies are clinically dead. They're dead, for all intents and purposes. The NDEr is alive in a spiritual sense, though, yes.

Yes, it's a deliberate lie. A clever guy 2000 years ago worked this out, and other clever people have been saying similar things both before, and since.

Nah, that's just religious reframing, to control humanity by claiming that life is about being judged and going to heaven or hell or whatever. In reality, life is about the journey ~ the judge at the end being merely ourselves, as we examine our progress and determine whether we achieved what we wanted to achieve, to figure out what our next step will be, whatever that is for the individual.

...brain activity gone if not vague and erratic...

measured by?

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far . Very thought provoking responses , helping with the Additional ways of thinking about things , helping me see things differently, and I feel the support , so thank you.

For me , I have been lucky enough or blessed enough to have some really special family members and loved ones who mean everything to me . Imagining never seeing them again or that life has no real deeper purpose ; is terrifyingly horrific to me . So I ruminate and obsessively read and listen and engage with all I can on tbis topic, and all the other mentioned ones too, mediumship, past lives , death bed visions , every topic covered on these forums . 

But until I find something that convinces me or it’s been proven scientifically or something , I’ll always obsessively doubt or something .

Despite my intellect knowing or believing the evidence supports survival… “feeling-wise,” I still doubt, worry, etc.

I think if this is affecting your daily life seeking professional help may be advisable.

That said I don't think you'll read something that can give you a definitive confidence. I do think even potentially paranormal experiences do give a stronger confidence in Survival, though this depends on the experience. This is something where I would recommend simple things like Sigil Magic or Lucid Dreaming, where there isn't any big risk to one's self like trying psychedelics.

First of all, thank you to everyone who has responded so far . Very thought provoking responses , helping with the Additional ways of thinking about things , helping me see things differently, and I feel the support , so thank you.

For me , I have been lucky enough or blessed enough to have some really special family members and loved ones who mean everything to me . Imagining never seeing them again or that life has no real deeper purpose ; is terrifyingly horrific to me . So I ruminate and obsessively read and listen and engage with all I can on tbis topic, and all the other mentioned ones too, mediumship, past lives , death bed visions , every topic covered on these forums . 

But until I find something that convinces me or it’s been proven scientifically or something , I’ll always obsessively doubt or something .

Despite my intellect knowing or believing the evidence supports survival… “feeling-wise,” I still doubt, worry, etc.

I think it is helpful to step back and try to look at the situation objectively. A boatload of empirical evidence for the reality of NDEs being glimpses of an afterlife state has been accumulated over years of research documenting a lot of veridical NDE OBE cases. Additionally, there are strong philosophical/metaphysical arguments invalidating materialism and finding consciousness to be basically immaterial and not dependent on the physical brain. Such as the identification of the so-called Hard Problem of Consciousness, where the problem is that it is extemely hard or more likely impossible for the physical brain to be generating consciousness (as materialist Science claims) because all the properties or aspects of consciousness including qualia are totally immaterial.

It is true that none of the veridical evidence accumulated by NDE researchers acheives the status of being actual proof of an afterlife, but any detailed examination of the accumulated evidence shows that there is no credible alternate explanation for this data. That factor alone I think leads to an at minimum 90% certainty of there being an afterlife. Then you need to bring in the strong philosophical/metaphysical arguments for the immateriality of consciousness and its probable existence as the soul, which I think could easily be another 9%, leading to an overall 99% certainty of the existence of an afterlife. 

This reasoning of course doesn't lead to absolute certainly, but certainly should alleviate most of the existential doubt of survival and dread of annihilation that can emerge. I'm reminded of the title of a well-known book on NDEs, "Don't Worry, There Probably is an afterlife".

There have been various posts from a few different people ; mentioning something to the effect of NDE’s being way lower in frequency than it may seem. 

Combine that with Sam Parnia’s recent video that focuses on Jeff Longs 43 cherry picked NDE’s…

With the fact Parnia or related studies have not produced big numbers of NDE’s needed..

Remembering an old skeptiko episode where Alex called out PMH Atwater for fabricating research ..

And a few other things I forgot all of a sudden..

Maybe I’m just needing sleep .. but I feel like I’m doubting all sorts of stuff . What I thought more “solid” on.. not so much anymore .

Am I reading too much into things , accidentally cherry picking to validate my own anxiety ?? Or r we seeing some “holes” in some recent logic .. 

I don’t know ..

Personally, I am much more interested in what experiencers have to say than what "researchers" have to say.

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