All matter is a cognitive ‘hallucination,’ even the brain itself

All matter is a cognitive ‘hallucination,’ even the brain itself

Aditya Prasad

Neuroscience has conceded that the same cognitive structures that generate dreams also generate our experience of waking reality. It’s just that, unlike in the former case, in the latter the ‘hallucination’ is modulated by external factors. Be that as it may, the implication is still that all we colloquially refer to as ‘matter’ is a cognitive construct of our minds. However, as Aditya Prasad highlights, despite such acknowledgment most neuroscientists still surreptitiously seem to assume that the chunk of matter we call a ‘brain’ is special: unlike all other matter, which is ‘hallucinated,’ the brain is the thing that generates the hallucinations. But for the account to remain consistent, we must understand that the brain, too, as a material object, is part of the hallucination. The implications of this consistency, Mr. Prasad argues, are ineffable.

[Laird]

Well, that was disappointing. Based on the title, I'd assumed that you were posting something that would address all or at least some of the intriguing difficulties related to explaining the brain on idealism that we'd discussed in the "A tabulation of mind-body possibilities" thread, in particular in posts #10, #19, #20, #21 #25, and #26.

But no, the article just pleased itself, grunted, and rolled over.

Well, that was disappointing. Based on the title, I'd assumed that you were posting something that would address all or at least some of the intriguing difficulties related to explaining the brain on idealism that we'd discussed in the "A tabulation of mind-body possibilities" thread, in particular in posts #10, #19, #20, #21 #25, and #26.

But no, the article just pleased itself, grunted, and rolled over.

I am not sure [m]any of those difficulties are known outside this forum? I'm sure some are, but I've found at least some of these only to be discussed here from what I saw?

There are a few Idealist dedicated spaces where you might see if they find any of those to be actual challenges?

[Laird]

I am not sure [m]any of those difficulties are known outside this forum? I'm sure some are, but I've found at least some of these only to be discussed here from what I saw?

You'd know better than I do as I'm not familiar with the idealist community, so I trust your judgement on this.

There are a few Idealist dedicated spaces where you might see if they find any of those to be actual challenges?

Sure, that sounds good. As you know from private correspondence, I'm working on an article that outlines them and other challenges. When complete, it would be interesting to see how folk in those spaces respond.

All matter is a cognitive ‘hallucination,’ even the brain itself

Aditya Prasad

It seems to me that in our local reality (whatever might exist outside it) the existence of an objective physical world is confirmed by the very consistent apparent solidity of the environment and very consistent correlation of apparent physical actions and the immediate reactions to them. This observation seems to contradict the notion that everything in our world is some form of cognitive "hallucination " as the claim describes it.

The question immediately follows, if this claim is true why do these entirely mental hallucinations so perfectly mimic an objective real physical world where things always push back when you give them a push? The design surmise would seem to be one answer, where the designers whatever they may be decided to build our reality that way in order to acheive our present reality where humans can experience and learn. For this learning there has to be some sort of apparent objective physical reality to encounter for good or ill.

Another question: if this claim is true what really is it that is having these hallucinations? The soul or spirit? Then why, leading again to the design hypothesis.

It seems to me that in our local reality (whatever might exist outside it) the existence of an objective physical world is confirmed by the very consistent apparent solidity of the environment and very consistent correlation of apparent physical actions and the immediate reactions to them. This observation seems to contradict the notion that everything in our world is some form of cognitive "hallucination " as the claim describes it.

The idea of experienced reality as hallucination is the materialist claim, starting from the point that consciousness is an illusion (a nonsensical catechism of the materialist faith).

But even for those of us who accept the irreducibility of the Experiencer, the Experience does seem to be dependent on what the brain to some degree while we're embodied here.

Now that doesn't mean there isn't anything out there, just that our experience of it is only a partial truth. We could be in the Matrix but even still some of our experience would at least correspond to truth.

It seems to me that in our local reality (whatever might exist outside it) the existence of an objective physical world is confirmed by the very consistent apparent solidity of the environment and very consistent correlation of apparent physical actions and the immediate reactions to them. This observation seems to contradict the notion that everything in our world is some form of cognitive "hallucination " as the claim describes it.

Except that this apparently solidity and consistency happens through the medium of perceiving through a physical form... outside of which, the NDEr cannot meaningfully affect the physical world proper, despite having just left it. But that's another point... the NDEr doesn't "hallucinate" either, so what is being sensed, and how do senses work outside a physical form?

The question immediately follows, if this claim is true why do these entirely mental hallucinations so perfectly mimic an objective real physical world where things always push back when you give them a push? The design surmise would seem to be one answer, where the designers whatever they may be decided to build our reality that way in order to acheive our present reality where humans can experience and learn. For this learning there has to be some sort of objective physical reality to encounter for good or ill.

The perception through physical form answers these questions perfectly. Form that exists on the same... level, as it were, interacts with ease, and we just happen to resonate at this level of form.

As for the designers... we cannot presume to know what their intentions were. I'm even less sure, having discovered more and more an entirely different reality that the loong spirit resonates with. Spirits have forms too... and they resonate and interact at that level with extreme ease.

So, reality has... levels, layers. The designers didn't build this reality for humans... we're just one more form of existence.

This physical reality is only "objective" insofar as it is a shared reality where we physical forms can sense and interact at an extreme similar level. The solidness being very much built into the perceptions of form. Cut off blood circulation, and good luck feeling anything ~ done that too my hands enough, and I can't feel anything... numb the tastebuds, can't taste anything. And so on.

Form is... weirder than it seems, especially when spiritual entities might need food, but they have no organs. There's a solidness to them when I focus my mind at that level, as straining as it can be to maintain. There's strong pushback when I press my... astral(?) hand against them. They're not exactly intangible, just a lot more dynamic and flexible in form.

Another question: if this claim is true what really is it that is having these hallucinations? The soul or spirit? Then why, leading again to the design hypothesis.

Soul, spirit... the descriptor matters not. It is form that provides the medium and shape of our perceptions, our "hallucinations".

Design needn't mean explicit Dualism of base substances, either. In fact, now that I have to contemplate the nature of a loong spirit, and spirits in general, I have precious little idea whatever the actual hell the nature of design is, other than vague floating ideas that frustrate progress, as I need more information, more experience... more something. Maybe a shaman could tell me... or not. Maybe it's something that cannot be replaced by experience.

All matter is a cognitive ‘hallucination,’ even the brain itself

Aditya Prasad

In a shared system, there has to be shared structures/relationships, otherwise the system would not be shared. The definition of a hallucination is an experience which is not shared/agreed upon - it's therefore not helpful to say the brain is a hallucination. Some micro structure/relationship within brains/cells will have a mathematical 1:1 correspondence with our cutting-edge understanding of the underlying mathematical structure of experience.

All matter is a cognitive ‘hallucination,’ even the brain itself

Aditya Prasad

Neuroscience has conceded that the same cognitive structures that generate dreams also generate our experience of waking reality. It’s just that, unlike in the former case, in the latter the ‘hallucination’ is modulated by external factors. Be that as it may, the implication is still that all we colloquially refer to as ‘matter’ is a cognitive construct of our minds. However, as Aditya Prasad highlights, despite such acknowledgment most neuroscientists still surreptitiously seem to assume that the chunk of matter we call a ‘brain’ is special: unlike all other matter, which is ‘hallucinated,’ the brain is the thing that generates the hallucinations. But for the account to remain consistent, we must understand that the brain, too, as a material object, is part of the hallucination. The implications of this consistency, Mr. Prasad argues, are ineffable.

Indeed... while incarnate, the human structure as a whole conveys to us a certain phenomenal perception. It is a "hallucination" in the sense that it is not the noumenal nature of the brain, which is the actual full nature of the brain as it really is, not the slice of reality we're limited to perceiving by our human structure.

To the neuroscientist, there is just the structure ~ there is no animating force, just the raw structure of material form and its components ~ which somehow, by material properties, just... robotically and mechanically do things, entirely unconsciously, while at the same time shallowly acknowledging consciousness, only to relegate it to being an unwanted annoyance that is ignored as not having any influence, if it doesn't just claim that it's a pure epiphenomenon of brain mechanics, as if it's just the robot twitching to "biological programming", nevermind it is never explained what or who wrote the "program", if they really want to use that metaphor improperly...

It's funny how the house of cards falls the more you poke at the foundations. But the faithful Materialist has their dogmas, alas, so emotion will always win out over rationality.

All matter is a cognitive ‘hallucination,’ even the brain itself

Aditya Prasad

I think this relies on multiple ambiguous definitions of "hallucination." Just because we say that the brain hallucinates our experiences does not imply that there is no external world. Our internal experiences are hallucinations in the sense that they are not the external things themselves. But there may still be external things.

~~ Paul