Psience Quest

(2023-12-25, 10:41 AM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]It's very simple.

You are attempting to use logical argument based on certain initial parameters in order to generate an outcome.

I don't share your faith in either the method or especially in the initial assumptions. Essentially I have a different starting point, one which doesn't seem possible to convey. But I also have understandings based on direct personal experience - my experience doesn't override yours of course, but it does mean we travel different paths.

Not sure what the initial assumptions or method you are referring to here, though I do find your response intriguing. [I do try to lay out my assumptions in the next post in the interest of clarity.]

I do agree that ultimately our starting points and feelings about Truth can greatly influence us, and there are outcomes I find preferable...possibly for reasons that I cannot even verbally articulate...

edit: removed double negative

(2023-12-25, 04:42 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]My interpretation of this would be as follows:

The example of the existence of a large body of veridical NDE OOBEs is some of the best evidence strongly pointing to survival of physical death.

If despite this there is really no survival of physical death, and super-psi is really responsible, as Typoz points out, this supposed massive illusionary phenomenon is self-contradictory and absurd. That is, it is absurd to propose that super-psi powers of the living could somehow create what actually happens - a perfect illusion of survival including veridical elements experienced in some NDE OOBEs. For phenomena such as experiences of separation from the body and brain and the experience of being a mobile immaterial center of consciousness able to observe the world and other realms (all experienced while the NDEr's brain was dysfunctional), super-psi would be required to essentially create real survival experiences, not the unreal hallucinatory illusions which are what it is attempting to create. As mentioned, this would be self-contradictory.

So, I think it's conceivable and even plausible that super-psi could possibly manifest extraordinary objective paranormal phenomena observed by witnesses such as the extraordinary events described in the quotes from para-anthropological sources, but super-psi could not plausibly generate actual veridical NDE OOBE self-experiences including verified observations of the world, where the NDEr is experiencing the super-psi hallucination from the inside. This problem is the extreme implausibility of the notion that super-psi could somehow overcome a person's own sense of self and self-identity (breaking the barrier between the objective and the subjective) with a totally convincing super-psychically generated hallucination of a powerful spiritual and veridical OOBE. An experience that totally convinces the NDEr it is ultra-real and that he is experiencing super-conscious subjective states including being in a supernal spiritual environment suffused by incredible light and love.

As mentioned, the self-contradictory part is that for the many veridical NDE OOBEs super-psi would have to also somehow create a hallucinatory illusion that contained veridical elements such as the NDEr actually for real experiencing ultra-clear transcendental consciousness while his/her brain was in fact dysfunctional (displaying for real the ultimate independence of human consciousness from the brain and body, not the hallucinatory experience attempting to be generated by living agent psi), and other veridical elements such as making actual for real objectively verified veridical observations of the resuscitation team working on his/her body, also while the brain was dysfunctional. Even if super-psi has nearly magical all-powerful capabilities, I would say it would be stretched too far to produce this.

Oh I agree, Super Psi is absurd. It's ability to explain-away any challenge* is akin to other kinds of "conspiratorial metaphysics" which includes certain varieties of Simulation Hypothesis, Gnosticism, and even certain Idealisms.

But I think Super Psi is absurd in many cases it's been offered as an explanation, which includes UFO literature. But it also seems to me that this includes at least some of the cases that involve spirits.

Or to put it another way ->

1) Physicalism/Materialism is false and doesn't give us a proper account of Consciousness nor Causation. [Additionally no metaphysics provides a satisfactory account of our our conscious Selves are created so it seems something of a leap to assume these Selves are ever destroyed.]

2) Because 1, we have no a priori reason to reject paranormal cases save for reasons of unreliability we might use for other judgements such as a legal dispute or even hearing a story from someone at a local bar. [And of course we also accept many of these claims as reliable.]

3) There are a lot of reliable witnesses, some of whom have actually been reluctant to share their experiences but have done so for the at least apparent sake of honesty.

4) Even if we accept *some* witnesses lie, it starts to get absurd to think all these people are lying.

6) The cases include experiences that indicate Survival of bodily death, but also the presence of entities that are immaterial - in the sense their existence cannot be measured by known physics - and have causal power over the substance of this world**.

I would add that Causation is quite mysterious, and IMO the best model for causation includes not just the Subjectivity of Consciousness but also its Volition.

To even take things a step further, I suspect that we are already in the "Spirit World" but by luck, blessing, or misfortune we find ourselves in a corner that seems to have a division between the "spiritual" and "physical" for reasons I am unsure of...our world doesn't seem like a school but neither does it seem to actually be a Gnostic prison reality either.

* Actually I think there are cases where information *should* be known by the dead according to Super Psi but isn't that really hurts it as a theory.

** For example:

Quote:Suddenly, standing on the grass, there was a figure, between two and three feet tall. It was anthropomorphic and fully three-dimensional (as we could clearly determine while we were drifting slowly past). It had sprung into appearance out of nowhere, and it caught my wife’s and my own transfixed attentions simultaneously. The figure was comprised of a jumble of very dark green tones, as if composed of a tight, dense tangle of foliage, rather like the stand of woodland a hundred yards or so beyond the sward of grass. It didn’t seem to quite have a face, just a head with deep-set eyes peering out of the green tangle. It presented a distinctly forbidding appearance. As we crawled past in our car, the figure started to turn its head in our direction, but then vanished. Charla called out: ‘Oh shit!’

We looked at each other, both of us wide-eyed and thoroughly disconcerted. ‘

You saw that?’ I asked rhetorically. The whole episode had lasted for only about half a minute or so, but it was unquestionably an actual, if transient, objective observation.
 -Paul Devereux's Forward for Greening the Paranormal: Exploring the Ecology of Extraordinary Experience

It is clear that many paranormal experiences of apparent spirits have occurred in the context of the Catholic Church's belief in Marian apparitions. These extraordinary experiences apparently really happened, with many witnesses. The most reasonable explanation is that they were subconsciously generated psychokinetic manifestations arising from the strong beliefs of masses of Catholics, rather than the actual spirits. In the context of the discussion here, these experiences could probably be classed as collective Living Agent Psi or Super-Psi, and probably indicate what sort of phenomena Super-Psi can create as opposed to what it can't do. It seems to me these religious phenomena may well indicate a common mechanism with many other non-Catholic paranormal events, where the strong beliefs of a large group of people can apparently physically manifest themselves and appear to many witnesses. 

A few of the many Catholic Marian apparition miracles observed by large numbers of people (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ma...pparitions):

- Our Lady of Knock, 1879, location Knock, Ireland

Quote:On August 21, 1879, a group of 15 men, women, and children, ranging in age from 5 to 75, reported seeing an apparition behind their church, against the back wall, of an altar with a lamb on it (understood to represent Jesus), surrounded by a multitude of angels. Off to the side in prayer stood Mary, Joseph, and St. John (with St. John dressed as a bishop). Because Mary was among those seen, the apparition is classified as Marian, although the simultaneous appearance of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, John, and numerous angels makes it unique among this category. A further distinctive characteristic is that this apparition was silent: no verbal messages were given. The apparition lasted for an hour and a half.

- Our Lady of Fátima, Our Lady of the Rosary, The Immaculate Heart of Mary, 1917, location Cova da Iria, Fátima, Portugal

Quote:Three shepherd children reported seeing apparitions of an angel (who identified himself as the Guardian Angel of Portugal) followed by apparitions of Mary. Mary revealed to the children three secrets: first, the reality of hell and the means of saving people from it through personal sacrifices and Acts of reparation; second, a prediction of future upheavals (beginning with World War II), the spiritual means of ending them (a Consecration of Russia and Communions of reparation on First Saturdays), and a prediction of an eventual "triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary"; third, an obscure vision of future persecution of the Catholic Church. The apparitions culminated with the Miracle of the Sun, an astronomical phenomenon witnessed by a crowd of approximately 70,000 people, and even by others located miles away.

- Our Lady of Medjugorje, The Gospa Queen of Peace, 1981–present, location Medjugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina

Quote:The reported apparitions of the Virgin Mary to six children in Medjugorje, beginning in 1981, have received significant attention due to the numerous miracles that large crowds of pilgrims report experiencing on an almost-daily basis, including dramatic conversions, visions, rosaries turning to a gold color, astronomical phenomena like the Miracle of the Sun, etc. The alleged apparitions are also notable for their duration, having been occurring continuously for almost 40 years. The apparition messages contain five main requests: first, to pray the entire Rosary daily; second, to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays; third, to attend Mass as often as possible; fourth, to go to Confession at least monthly; and fifth, to read the Bible daily.

(2023-12-25, 10:05 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]A few of the many Catholic Marian apparition miracles observed by large numbers of people (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ma...pparitions):

- Our Lady of Knock, 1879, location Knock, Ireland


- Our Lady of Fátima, Our Lady of the Rosary, The Immaculate Heart of Mary, 1917, location Cova da Iria, Fátima, Portugal


- Our Lady of Medjugorje, The Gospa Queen of Peace, 1981–present, location Medjugorje, Bosnia and Herzegovina

I'll have to look deeper into the first two, but the last one I think is actually not generated by Catholic faith but rather an entity upon whom Catholic beliefs have been projected...or possibl[y] something to do with field effects...or both.

From Kripal's Authors of the Impossible:

Quote:There is also the curious scene during which an angel gives the children “Communion,” or at least some kind of liquid and solid that were meant to look like the Catholic sacrament. Interestingly, the main visionary, Lucia, received a solid “host,” whereas the two other children received a strange liquid. Francisco at least could not identify whatever it was he drank from the chalice. Joaquim Fernandes and Fina D’Armada make comparative sense of this scene by describing multiple UFO encounters in which the contactee is given a strange substance to eat or liquid to drink and then has a mystical vision or is made to understand a message. Their conclusion is clear enough: “The recurring theme in all of these types of cases involves the access to communication and dialogue requiring the ingestion of drugs as a means of entering into an extra-human plane.”  On the tragic side, Michael Persinger points out that whereas little Francisco died during the influenza epidemic of 1918, Jacinta’s premature death displayed symptoms strongly suggestive of lung cancer, which he relates to radiation emitted around the tree before, during, and after the visions. This, after all, was also the children’s common playground. 

Persinger has written extensively on paranormal phenomena. He is well known in ufological circles for his lab research on the “alien visitation” phenomenon, a humble analog of which he is able to induce in the lab with electromagnetic fields mathematically calibrated to “entrain” specific altered states in the temporal lobes of a human brain via a helmet fitted with solenoids. He is also well known for his tectonic strain hypothesis, which interprets the balls of light common in UFO encounters as temporary spikes of electromagnetic energy created by stressed tectonic plates in the earth, which then interact with the subtle magnetic fields of the human neural net to create the various local illusions and religious visions of the typical UFO encounter (or Marian apparition). Persinger has also suggested a correlation between high geomagnetic activity and poltergeist activity and hauntings, a suggestion that recalls Jung’s earlier comparison of UFOs to planetary poltergeists. Also, for what it is worth (quite a bit, I think, in this context), Fort repeatedly suggested that all those “super-constructions” in the sky appear during or around earthquakes.  In this haunting reading, the Virgin, or the energy spike that produced her, at least, actually killed little Jacinta. To support such an interpretation, Persinger points out that the Fátima area is well known as a tectonic strain hotspot, and that the strongest earthquake on record was the Lisbon earthquake of 1755 (Fátima is about eighty-six miles north of the city). Fernandes and D’Armada make the same point, citing an earthquake that measured an astonishing 9.0 on the Richter scale that once ripped through Fátima itself.27 The seismic activity could have created immense geomagnetic fields, which would then collect and discharge on tall structures, like the tree on which the apparition appeared. As for the regular periodic nature of the six monthly events, Persinger relates these to a lunar phase, that is, another supermagnetic phenomenon with a strong, predictable, periodic nature. The same magnetic discharges, he speculates, would have powerfully stimulated the children’s temporal lobes, resulting in the visions.  The specifics and, of course, the later interpretation of the apparitions were shaped “by their obsession with religious themes, their lack of education [all three children were illiterate], and their behavior at the time of the experience . . . If they had grown up in a world of Star Wars, they would have seen and heard some variant of Luke Skywalker.”28 Not that the visions were entirely consonant with the children’s Catholicism. As we have seen, they were not. Francisco, for example, did not hear the little lady speak and remembered seeing a haze that he interpreted as a headless angel! 

There is more than a little justification for such a literally radioactive reading. Numerous individuals reported intense heat and the almost instant drying of both their clothes and the previously soaked soil during “the Miracle of the Sun,” features entirely consistent with immense bursts of electromagnetic radiation. The “buzzing” noises can be fit in here as well, as individuals exposed to microwave radiation between 200 and 3,000 MHz commonly experience buzzing noises inside their heads. Raul Berenguel goes even further, pointing out that hearing voices in the interior of the cranium and the phenomenon of buzzing “is identical to what is felt by individuals subjected to mind control technologies that use microwaves.” We are back to an eerie and potentially troubling scene reminiscent of Vallee’s alien-control hypothesis.

A Venus-Virgin with a knee-high skirt, alien insectoid buzzing, and spinning metallic disks in the sky above Fátima. In effect, a Marialien. Now that would have changed how I prayed my rosary. I might even still be praying it.

Kripal, Jeffrey J.. Authors of the Impossible: The Paranormal and the Sacred (p. 282). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.

Admittedly I'm a bit wary of even the field effect hypothesis, it seems too eager to put a normalized spin on something Weird..I suppose it is possible though the bit about mind control technologies using microwaves seems like something that is science-fiction instead of anything that fits known science?

(2023-12-26, 06:42 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]I'll have to look deeper into the first two, but the last one I think is actually not generated by Catholic faith but rather an entity upon whom Catholic beliefs have been projected...or possibl[y] something to do with field effects...or both.

From Kripal's Authors of the Impossible:


Admittedly I'm a bit wary of even the field effect hypothesis, it seems too eager to put a normalized spin on something Weird..I suppose it is possible though the bit about mind control technologies using microwaves seems like something that is science-fiction instead of anything that fits known science?

I don't think much of Persinger's high geomagnetic activity and high electromagnetic field interference theories. And the notion that Fatima was generated by an entity could be extended indefinitely to Animistically explain a multitude of paranormal manifestation cases. In the absence of any verified information, there could be hordes of mischievous spirits enabling and also constantly interfering in our world. Like with super-psi and world-is-a-simulation theories, that which explains everything actually explains nothing, especially because of being unfalsifiable. Why should just Catholic beliefs, and animistic beliefs of aboriginal tribes, so uniquely empower preexisting entities? It seems much more likely to me that these phenomena are collective psychic manifestations of the unconscious minds of many faithful true believers, and that for the most part in our world just Catholicism and certain aboriginal communities have possessed enough communal psychic energy to generate these paranormal phenomena. All this mechanism would require is communities of faithful deep believers in cults or religions where the existence of powerful spirit entities is a core feature of the belief systems. 

That's not to claim there are no spirit entity manifestations. It's just that these cases would likely be in the great minority. One further possibility is a combination of these two models - where sometimes, collective human spiritual psychic energy manifests the paranormal phenomena by actually creating spirit entities that do the work. A famous documented example was "Philip", created by the prolonged efforts of an expert mediumship circle.

(2023-12-26, 06:42 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]the bit about mind control technologies using microwaves seems like something that is science-fiction instead of anything that fits known science?

If you are around long enough for the revelation, you will be surprised and shocked, although the technology does not use microwaves but UHF radio waves.

(2023-12-27, 04:17 PM)Brian Wrote: [ -> ]If you are around long enough for the revelation, you will be surprised and shocked, although the technology does not use microwaves but UHF radio waves.

I don't really know anything about the scientific literature on this?

The best I've heard is being able to scan a brain and read certain thoughts though even then only with high probability than certainty. Also I think this was contextual and limited?

(2023-12-26, 08:38 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think much of Persinger's high geomagnetic activity and high electromagnetic field interference theories. And the notion that Fatima was generated by an entity could be extended indefinitely to Animistically explain a multitude of paranormal manifestation cases. In the absence of any verified information, there could be hordes of mischievous spirits enabling and also constantly interfering in our world. Like with super-psi and world-is-a-simulation theories, that which explains everything actually explains nothing, especially because of being unfalsifiable. Why should just Catholic beliefs, and animistic beliefs of aboriginal tribes, so uniquely empower preexisting entities? It seems much more likely to me that these phenomena are collective psychic manifestations of the unconscious minds of many faithful true believers, and that for the most part in our world just Catholicism and certain aboriginal communities have possessed enough communal psychic energy to generate these paranormal phenomena. All this mechanism would require is communities of faithful deep believers in cults or religions where the existence of powerful spirit entities is a core feature of the belief systems. 

That's not to claim there are no spirit entity manifestations. It's just that these cases would likely be in the great minority. One further possibility is a combination of these two models - where sometimes, collective human spiritual psychic energy manifests the paranormal phenomena by actually creating spirit entities that do the work. A famous documented example was "Philip", created by the prolonged efforts of an expert mediumship circle.

I don't believe Fatima was generated by an entity, I think what happened is some kind of entity appeared but was interpreted as Mary. The initial reports are something about a young girl with a knee high skirt w/odd features if I recall.

As to the cases being just Catholicism and Animism there are a variety of cases of these kinds of entities across the world, though I'll have to go back and dig into cases. I think Vallee's work in Passport to Magonia does a good job of tracking the European cases at least.

I actually think Phillip, like cases of medium Controls in general, are just spirits. I think spirits just come and take part in ritual practices like the kind that "created" Phillip. With regard to Controls in mediumship, I think this helps makes sense of their mix of ignorance and knowledge along with their mischievous bent.

Even if we accept subpersonalities, the research by the Wicklands shows that even in those cases you [could] have spirit possession. Admittedly AFAIK the Wicklands felt these cases always involved the dead and not elemental spirits of the Animist kind.

Really I am just quite wary of any claim that human psychic powers can create entities via some kind of subconscious planning. It just seems hard to explain why these things only happen in isolated contexts and don't give us manifestations more generally. James Carpenter's First Sight Theory, which claims we use Psi all the time, doesn't seem to include creating entities out of belief.

This isn't to say every case of "macro-Psi" in the wild is due to a spirit. I can accept that Joseph of Cupertino levitated due to his personal faith leading to Psi manifestation, since AFAIK this never involves a subconscious personality. Same with the "PK Man" who, AFAIK, never talked about subpersonalities. 

But even in the Mesmerism cases it seems there is a personality switch, where the one who has the powers is of a different personality than the usual person. Metaphysically it isn't clear to me what a different personality is if not a different conscious Self...and if this Self is immortal too then seeing it as a separate spirit makes sense to me...

(2023-12-27, 05:34 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ].................................................

I actually think Phillip, like cases of medium Controls in general, are just spirits. I think spirits just come and take part in ritual practices like the kind that "created" Phillip. With regard to Controls in mediumship, I think this helps makes sense of their mix of ignorance and knowledge along with their mischievous bent.

.................................................

There doesn't seem to be much evidence Philip was a mischievous preexisting spirit entity that barged into the group's lengthy process in the desire to fake the results of their imagination. To what end this expenditure of so much time and energy on the part of the discarnate entity? The details of the records of the group's process mostly indicate that Philip was actually created by the group.

From the Psi Encyclopedia entry (https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/artic...eplication):

Quote:"Each member of the group memorized the story (that they had concocted from pure imagination) and tried to visualize Philip, making him as real as they could in their minds. They agreed on all aspects of his appearance, personality and preferences, and Andy produced a drawing of him.  The group decided to attempt to cause him to manifest in visible form; only then, they hypothesized, could he be summoned.

The group members made a commitment to meet weekly for sessions for a year. They sat in a circle around a table with the drawing of Philip in its center, or a piece of aluminized cardboard on the floor instead of the table, in the hope of causing Philip to materialize on it. The sittings were never in darkness but rather colored lights or candlelight.

After a period of quiet meditation, they would share what they had felt or experienced during meditation, then meditate again. The length of the meditation increased as group members became used to it. In discussions they continued to develop Philip as a character, solidifying their collective notion of his personality. In time they found themselves becoming convinced he had really lived.  But a year passed without significant results."

................................
After changing meditation practices, results finally started coming:
................................

Quote:"Using one rap for yes and two for no, the group had him tell his story, to see if this would match their creative conception, and this proved generally to be the case. Any new material could usually be traced to an earlier comment by a group member, as was also the case when ‘Philip’ gave historically inaccurate answers, which could almost always be traced to incorrect knowledge on the part of the group.

The group remained aware that they had created Philip, but came to treat him as a group member.

.................................

Quote:...when members were sick, the phenomena would manifest more weakly.
.................................
...there was no question in the minds of the group members that Philip’s personality was a composite of their own, since he was their creation."

(2023-12-28, 05:03 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]There doesn't seem to be much evidence Philip was a mischievous preexisting spirit entity that barged into the group's lengthy process in the desire to fake the results of their imagination. To what end this expenditure of so much time and energy on the part of the discarnate entity? The details of the records of the group's process mostly indicate that Philip was actually created by the group.

From the Psi Encyclopedia entry (https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/artic...eplication):

................................
After changing meditation practices, results finally started coming:
................................

.................................

Yeah I'm familiar with the case but it just doesn't add up IMO. Why this ritualized practice, and not another? Why haven't we seen manifestations of Harry Potter's world (or Tolkien's Middle Earth, etc)?

Just compare Phillip to other mediumship controls, and the parallels seem quite important.

To me it seems less extravagant to assume there was a spirit who decided to play along than the idea that humans can create a conscious being out of whole cloth.

As to why a spirit would do this, just look at all the bizarre things people get up to either anonymously or in fully public exposure on the internet...