(2023-12-28, 05:17 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah I'm familiar with the case but it just doesn't add up IMO. Why this ritualized practice, and not another? Why haven't we seen manifestations of Harry Potter's world (or Tolkien's Middle Earth, etc)?
Just compare Phillip to other mediumship controls, and the parallels seem quite important.
To me it seems less extravagant to assume there was a spirit who decided to play along than the idea that humans can create a conscious being out of whole cloth.
As to why a spirit would do this, just look at all the bizarre things people get up to either anonymously or in fully public exposure on the internet...
It seems reasonable that much concentrated practice would be needed to entrain the subconscious minds of the circle to create a collective artificial personality. Harry Potter or Tolkien's Middle Earth sagas would not engender such powerful mental energies, would not entail such mental forcing for long periods.
I know it's an argument from authority, but the conclusions of some renowned experts in this area should at least be considered. Early on, William James suspected that Leonora Piper's controls were creations of her subconscious, he thought a fascinating mental process that seemed to serve to buffer her from the strangeness of trance life. Stephen Braude studied mediumship for many years, and concluded in Immortal Remains that most controls are flagrantly artificial personalities. He said that given their obvious artificiality, there can be little doubt that the medium constructed them subconsciously. This of course doesn't prove that the uncannily realistic to sitters deceased personalities coming through in successful readings are also subconsciously manufactured by the medium. It seems obvious that prodigious mediums like Piper produced both subconsciously generated control "spirits" and genuine discarnate communications.
(2023-12-29, 12:35 AM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]It seems reasonable that much concentrated practice would be needed to entrain the subconscious minds of the circle to create a collective artificial personality. Harry Potter or Tolkien's Middle Earth sagas would not engender such powerful mental energies, would not entail such mental forcing for long periods.
I know it's an argument from authority, but the conclusions of some renowned experts in this area should at least be considered. Early on, William James suspected that Leonora Piper's controls were creations of her subconscious, he thought a fascinating mental process that seemed to serve to buffer her from the strangeness of trance life. Stephen Braude studied mediumship for many years, and concluded in Immortal Remains that most controls are flagrantly artificial personalities. He said that given their obvious artificiality, there can be little doubt that the medium constructed them subconsciously. This of course doesn't prove that the uncannily realistic to sitters deceased personalities coming through in successful readings are also subconsciously manufactured by the medium. It seems obvious that prodigious mediums like Piper produced both subconsciously generated control "spirits" and genuine discarnate communications.
Braude is the main Super-Psi guy though. What do you think is the difference then between "Phillip" and what you would consider genuine cases of mediumship?
It just seems to me that if controls are born from a subconscious personality AND living humans can even create a psychic entity like Phillip then a lot of Survival evidence can be dismissed. Maybe not all of it but a fair number of cases I'd think could be then said to fall under psychic sub-personalities or psychic creations.
Though even if [one] grants these Super Psi powers to living humans...it still seems we should have many more cases of human willing + wishing creating new psychic entities. Admittedly some claim [this] is what Tulpas are, and I too believed this for some time, but the question that nagged at me was why human belief had creative potential [to the point of manifesting entities] but only in isolated contexts. [IMO it seems more plausible that there are just spirits, likely including the dead who have not traveled beyond this world, who enjoy playing these games with humans.]
edit: You can buy Ouija Boards at your local department store in the game section, but the number of people who experience paranormal phenomena by using them seems lower?
(2023-12-29, 05:12 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Braude is the main Super-Psi guy though. What do you think is the difference then between "Phillip" and what you would consider genuine cases of mediumship?
It just seems to me that if controls are born from a subconscious personality AND living humans can even create a psychic entity like Phillip then a lot of Survival evidence can be dismissed. Maybe not all of it but a fair number of cases I'd think could be then said to fall under psychic sub-personalities or psychic creations.
Though even if [one] grants these Super Psi powers to living humans...it still seems we should have many more cases of human willing + wishing creating new psychic entities. Admittedly some claim [this] is what Tulpas are, and I too believed this for some time, but the question that nagged at me was why human belief had creative potential [to the point of manifesting entities] but only in isolated contexts. [IMO it seems more plausible that there are just spirits, likely including the dead who have not traveled beyond this world, who enjoy playing these games with humans.]
edit: You can buy Ouija Boards at your local department store in the game section, but the number of people who experience paranormal phenomena by using them seems lower?
Mediumistic communications from apparent deceased personalities that are uncannily authentic-seeming can't reasonably be blanket dismissed as being generated by the medium's subconscious mind combined with psychically gathered information. This is because just that the medium probably subconsciously artificially created an interfacing "control" spirit doesn't automatically logically prove that another and different paranormal phenomenon, apparent mediumistic communications received from discarnate personalities, was also generated by the subconscious of the medium. The prior probability of survival is good based on other sources of data, since there are several other very probative evidences for survival and an afterlife, especially well-verified CORT reincarnation phenomena and veridical NDEs.
Probably the reason for the relative unpopularity of Ouija boards and their probable general ineffectiveness in revealing paranormal phenomena, is simply due to the changes in lifestyle in the current world. People today have so many technologically-generated distractions and pursuits (like smartphones, TV and the Internet), that it is very unusual for people to devote the weeks or months of focused effort usually required to obtain apparent paranormal communications through the Ouija board. And it has generally become known that there is danger in the practice.
(2023-12-29, 09:56 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]Mediumistic communications from apparent deceased personalities that are uncannily authentic-seeming can't reasonably be blanket dismissed as being generated by the medium's subconscious mind combined with psychically gathered information. This is because just that the medium probably subconsciously artificially created an interfacing "control" spirit doesn't automatically logically prove that another and different paranormal phenomenon, apparent mediumistic communications received from discarnate personalities, was also generated by the subconscious of the medium. The prior probability of survival is good based on other sources of data, since there are several other very probative evidences for survival and an afterlife, especially well-verified CORT reincarnation phenomena and veridical NDEs.
Probably the reason for the relative unpopularity of Ouija boards and their probable general ineffectiveness in revealing paranormal phenomena, is simply due to the changes in lifestyle in the current world. People today have so many technologically-generated distractions and pursuits (like smartphones, TV and the Internet), that it is very unusual for people to devote the weeks or months of focused effort usually required to obtain apparent paranormal communications through the Ouija board. And it has generally become known that there is danger in the practice.
I think the issue with CORTs and NDEs is if you allow Super Psi to explain spirits by subconscious Psi powers, willfully created psychic entities born of human creativity, or a combination of both...it is quite hard to see why those types of Survival evidence aren't also under the purview of Super Psi?
As for the danger of Ouija boards, it seems to me their danger is contacting some spirit entity. However their continued sales suggests to me most people's experiences are merely that of a fun party game rather than any real contact. So it doesn't seem like human wishing actually accomplishes much here.
Beyond that if we look at ritualized healing we have to ask how intricate rituals even came about. Why does Rolling Thunder put the sickness into a pair of steaks? It seems to me the ritual practice is either born of revelation from some spirit entity or through some trial and error to satisfy the spirits involved. On the other hand, looking at direct psychic healing we find Bengson mentioning spirit entities - Seven Fellows is their name IIRC - that actually aided in his healing work. (Admittedly I am skeptical of Bengson's claims, at least to some degree.)
Compare these paranormal healing phenomena with what I would guess are the vast amount of prayers and even failed ritual practices. The variability of success suggests human willing & wishing alone isn't sufficient, nor has Nature selected for such powers which is what might expect under a Super Psi explanation for spirits.
However if there are spirits that have a means of existing without physical bodies it bolsters Survival as a position, and on the flip if Survival is true it seems that at least the dead are capable of existing as apparitions in this world...but this also means there is a way spirits could exist in this world as well.
Meanwhile trying to explain away spirits but keep Survival just seems to lead to a mess of metaphysics, leaving more questions than answers.
(2023-12-30, 04:20 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]I think the issue with CORTs and NDEs is if you allow Super Psi to explain spirits by subconscious Psi powers, willfully created psychic entities born of human creativity, or a combination of both...it is quite hard to see why those types of Survival evidence aren't also under the purview of Super Psi?
As for the danger of Ouija boards, it seems to me their danger is contacting some spirit entity. However their continued sales suggests to me most people's experiences are merely that of a fun party game rather than any real contact. So it doesn't seem like human wishing actually accomplishes much here.
Beyond that if we look at ritualized healing we have to ask how intricate rituals even came about. Why does Rolling Thunder put the sickness into a pair of steaks? It seems to me the ritual practice is either born of revelation from some spirit entity or through some trial and error to satisfy the spirits involved. On the other hand, looking at direct psychic healing we find Bengson mentioning spirit entities - Seven Fellows is their name IIRC - that actually aided in his healing work. (Admittedly I am skeptical of Bengson's claims, at least to some degree.)
Compare these paranormal healing phenomena with what I would guess are the vast amount of prayers and even failed ritual practices. The variability of success suggests human willing & wishing alone isn't sufficient, nor has Nature selected for such powers which is what might expect under a Super Psi explanation for spirits.
However if there are spirits that have a means of existing without physical bodies it bolsters Survival as a position, and on the flip if Survival is true it seems that at least the dead are capable of existing as apparitions in this world...but this also means there is a way spirits could exist in this world as well.
Meanwhile trying to explain away spirits but keep Survival just seems to lead to a mess of metaphysics, leaving more questions than answers.
The problem with this idea is that Super-Psi or Living Agent Psi seems only to have some abilities to create objectively real external paranormal phenomena such as apparitions, and apparent entities manifesting through an Ouija board or mediumistic circle. But it's not able to bridge the objective/subjective gap and create vivid inner paranormal experiences indicative of survival like NDEs and CORTs, where it is an experience inside the Self, not being manifested and being observed external to it.
(2023-12-30, 05:08 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]The problem with this idea is that Super-Psi or Living Agent Psi seems only to have some abilities to create objectively real external paranormal phenomena such as apparitions, and apparent entities manifesting through an Ouija board or mediumistic circle. But it's not able to bridge the objective/subjective gap and create vivid inner paranormal experiences indicative of survival like NDEs and CORTs, where it is an experience inside the Self, not being manifested and being observed external to it.
But there are inner experiences involving spirits as well? Certain shamanic visionary journeys involve dreaming experiences with spirit entities. For example a women with a history of being abused said she found great healing via Strassman's DMT experiments due to interaction with odd Harlequin entities.
On top of that if this idea of spirits being Super-Psi creations is meant to fit in some kind of Designed Dualism, the rules for when these Psi powers manifest in the fictional-but-seemingly-real creation of spirits seems like it would rather messy.
I think it makes more sense to have a unified explanation for Survival and spirits, with ourselves as a kind of spirit that has chosen to incarnate into a biological body.
Of course if Super Psi was a good theory I could accept it, but the selective aspect of its manifestation and the odd role of subconscious personalities are two big hurdles for it being a workable explanation IMO.
(2023-12-30, 07:47 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]But there are inner experiences involving spirits as well? Certain shamanic visionary journeys involve dreaming experiences with spirit entities. For example a women with a history of being abused said she found great healing via Strassman's DMT experiments due to interaction with odd Harlequin entities.
On top of that if this idea of spirits being Super-Psi creations is meant to fit in some kind of Designed Dualism, the rules for when these Psi powers manifest in the fictional-but-seemingly-real creation of spirits seems like it would rather messy.
I think it makes more sense to have a unified explanation for Survival and spirits, with ourselves as a kind of spirit that has chosen to incarnate into a biological body.
Of course if Super Psi was a good theory I could accept it, but the selective aspect of its manifestation and the odd role of subconscious personalities are two big hurdles for it being a workable explanation IMO.
Interactive Dualism (strongly pointed to by the phenomena of veridical OOBE NDEs) is already messy, requiring several forms of special cases and interactions, in addition to the primary one being our own embodiment. Dualism even is appearing to perhaps be just a major emergent mode of reality, somehow arising from some sort of Monistic ground state of being.
Similary, I think LAP (Super-Psi)-generated entities being manifested sometimes in addition to genuine discarnate deceased and other spirit entities along with our own embodied selves doesn't seem to be much of a complexity stretch from where the theory already is. I think this is just following the evidence wherever it leads. That the Standard Model of physics being combined with quantum mechanics and relativity constitutes a greatly complicated system doesn't prevent it from being at least provisionally accepted despite presumably violating the Ockham's Razor principle of parsimony. It, also, is just following the evidence. It is controversial, but there doesn't seem to be any fundamental law of nature that enforces Ockham's Razor upon it. This is just a general rule that is often but not always followed by reality.
(2023-12-31, 04:31 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]Interactive Dualism (strongly pointed to by the phenomena of veridical OOBE NDEs) is already messy, requiring several forms of special cases and interactions, in addition to the primary one being our own embodiment. Dualism even is appearing to perhaps be just a major emergent mode of reality, somehow arising from some sort of Monistic ground state of being.
Similary, I think LAP (Super-Psi)-generated entities being manifested sometimes in addition to genuine discarnate deceased and other spirit entities along with our own embodied selves doesn't seem to be much of a complexity stretch from where the theory already is. I think this is just following the evidence wherever it leads. That the Standard Model of physics being combined with quantum mechanics and relativity constitutes a greatly complicated system doesn't prevent it from being at least provisionally accepted despite presumably violating the Ockham's Razor principle of parsimony. It, also, is just following the evidence. It is controversial, but there doesn't seem to be any fundamental law of nature that enforces Ockham's Razor upon it. This is just a general rule that is often but not always followed by reality.
Yeah I think this gives us multiple claims that seem confusing ->
- There are "spirits" in the sense of some Designer(s?) who took the "mother substance" and made this physical world - with all its quantum & relativistic oddities - along with a spiritual world.
- There are "spirits" who are us, and when we die we leave the physical world...sometimes. Sometimes there are apparitions and sometimes there is reincarnation. Sometimes these spirits, as per the Wicklands, can even be sub-personalities...though Controls in mediumship are just subpersonalities that apparently don't have souls of their own.
- There are varied "laws of nature" laid down to ensure some kind of harmony between my thinking of moving an arm and the physical arm moving. There are also laws for PK, wherein my Mind seemingly directly impacts the "physical".
- Humans have subconscious Psi powers, and these can even imitate what seems to be spirits. Sometimes you need, like in the case of Phillip, a particular jovial atmosphere...and at other times you have a more solemn Shamanic ceremony like when Rolling Thunder puts sickness into steaks and burns them. Apparently there are laws laid down by the Designer(s?) for these varied circumstances where subpersonalities can pretend to be spirits or even manifest new spirit entities like "Phillip".
- There remains the question of how physical causation, between say a stone and the window it breaks, works.
(2023-12-31, 07:34 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]..........................................................................................
- There remains the question of how physical causation, between say a stone and the window it breaks, works.
We can follow a "daisy chain" of proximal cause-effect relationships to scientifically determine that "how" down to a certain level of existence, then inevitable mystery. For instance, the contact point of the rock and the window is mutually impenetrable (causing the rock due to its momentum to push the window hard until it breaks it's molecular bonds) because at the atomic level there is a very strong electrostatic repulsion between the two solid surfaces. At the next deeper level, physics and quantum mechanics explains the nature at that level of view of these electric fields. But it stops there - we don't have any way of determining the ultimate
how the physical works this way
- the ultimate inner nature of these fields and forces at the absolute ground level of existence, or even the ultimate inner nature of cause-and-effect itself.
But at least we can intelligently speculate on
why things are this way in our reality.
This is the more (necessarily anthropically) metaphysical matter of trying to understand the reason
why matter behaves this way at all. It seems that Design by "the powers that be" inevitably must rear it's ugly head. The reason for this behavior of matter in our reality is presumably because this schema and resultant behavior is required for the existence of sentient beings. If separate objects didn't exist or didn't remain separate and when in impenetrable contact strongly push against each other (generating forces due to this contact and the opposing forces acting on the objects themselves), then all the very complex interactions of our world could not occur, and sentient beings like ourselves couldn't exist.
So actually we are still confronted by a brick wall of mystery in penetrating to an explanation of the
how of all this - the ultimate nature of the physical forces responsible for physical causation in our reality. I don't think this mystery can ever even in principle be penetrated by Mankind, because of the inherent limitations of our basic nature. The answer is way beyond our Cosmic "Pay Grade".
One proposed approach to a solution is to hypothesize the existence of countless spirits that simply push things around following the rules of deterministic reality. The problem is, this "solution" would just create another lower level of mystery, of the true inner nature of whatever it is that explains how the spirit beings push things around. This in turn inherently becomes an endless series.
(2024-01-01, 05:08 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]One proposed approach to a solution is to hypothesize the existence of countless spirits that simply push things around following the rules of deterministic reality. The problem is, this "solution" would just create another lower level of mystery, of the true inner nature of whatever it is that explains how the spirit beings push things around. This in turn inherently becomes an endless series.
AFAIK our best scientific evidence says there is no deterministic reality, only an approximation of harmony at the classical/macro level due to decoherence? Regarding the QM level,
even Nobel Physicist Penrose has wondered about consciousness down there ->
Quote:“An element of proto-consciousness takes place whenever a decision is made in the universe. I’m not talking about the brain. I’m talking about an object which is put into a superposition of two places. Say it’s a speck of dust that you put into two locations at once. Now, in a small fraction of a second, it will become one or the other. Which does it become? Well, that’s a choice. Is it a choice made by the universe? Does the speck of dust make this choice? Maybe it’s a free choice. I have no idea.”
But I agree that each cause/effect relation need not be the work of some lesser spirit in the Animist sense, even if I do hold that all causation is mental causation...this might warrant its own thread actually...
Of course there can be spirits in this world that are not among the human dead without there needing to be spirits making every atom move or even spirits governing all "territories" (bodies of water, regions of land, etc). And if there are not-exactly-physical Designer(s?) who can manipulate the substance of this universe - as they'd have to do for Cosmic Fine Tuning - it becomes plausible that lesser not-exactly-physical entities might do the same on a smaller scale.
Beyond that for myself I am wary of dismissing any cases that seem to come from either a small number of reliable witnesses or those witnessed en masse. I also give credence when, even if we might be suspicious of individual cases, we see a group of cases that fit a similar pattern such as those Vallee has documented in the historical record.
So perhaps not Animism in a "strong" sense of spirits running around making every event happen, but at least in a "weak" sense that entities who aren't as restricted by biological bodies share this world with us.
I think Survival, Psi, and Spirits all have good cases, enough to make me think all are real. OTOH stuff like people having unknown-to-them subconscious personalities seems much weaker, especially if we grant these personalities psychic powers and planning capabilities that allow them to fake evidence of Survival and/or Spirits. Even if we grant the existence of sub-personalities, the work of the Wicklands along with mental models across history suggest these too could be spirits themselves.