(2024-03-31, 12:08 PM)Jim_Smith Wrote: [ -> ]Some of Mandoki's thesis is interesting ... As far as I can tell she is saying that trying to prove NDEs are real by using physical evidence is impossible because the experiencer has to live to tell the tale in which case the materialist can always say that the experience was produced by living matter.
Mandoki says that materialists assume materialism is a superior point of view so it is fair to take that position, but actually there are no valid grounds to believe materialism is superior to other possibilities. You can read the thesis to see why she said this, she summarizes it this way:
I have written about how materialism is undermined
here
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/s...x4y6kvf0cq
and here
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/s...tce5gsicfv
Mandoki concludes that if materialism is not a better point of view, in that case idealism is superior to dualism and materialism because it is the most parsimonious.
This seems to be going over old ground. I don't have much patience for Mandoki's theory. I think I need only repeat my post from that thread. From
https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-d...8#pid48018 :
Quote:"This doctoral thesis looks at least on the surface to be an incredible flight of academic arrogance. Mandoki apparently is gratuitously assuming that only philosophy can decide the veridicality of NDEs, and inherently dismisses and ignores the painstaking, careful and thorough actual physical investigations by many NDE researchers over the years that have conclusively verified that many elements in NDE accounts closely correspond with what actually happened in the physical world, while the NDEer was completely incapacitated, often even with a nonfunctioning physical brain. Information about the actions and identities of the doctors treating the NDEer's body (and other goings-on) that was completely unavailable to the NDEers through their normal senses. And this is also the case for other areas of NDEs, such as Mandoki's inherent dismissal of the similarly researched and investigated NDEer accounts of having met and communicated with the spirits of deceased loved ones that they (the NDEers) didn't know had passed.
This research and these investigations in themselves prove the veridicality (that is, the truth or the correspondence with reality) of many NDEs. We don't need Idealist philosophy to decide on the veridicality of NDEs - just careful investigation in the physical world."
The academic paper by Mandoki appears to ignore the best cases of NDE veridicality, such as the Pam Reynolds case. Cardiologist Michael Sabom extensively investigated the case, and neurosurgeon Robert Spetzler (who actually performed the operation) could testify to that. They believe the combination of anesthesia and the sluggish or nonexistent brain activity caused by hypothermia meant that Reynolds could not form or retain memories for a significant part of the operation. At the very least, Sabom says, Reynolds' story raises the high possibility that consciousness can function even when the brain is offline.
"Is there some type of awareness that occurs from a nonfunctional, physical brain?" Sabom asks. "And if there is, does that mean that there's a soul or spirit?"
The following is more information from my files on the Pam Reynolds case. It's just the tip of the iceberg, considering all the cases.
There are the extraordinary confirmed veridical elements of Reynolds' experience, in particular her apparently sighted perception of the unusually shaped Midas Rex bone saw. In the case of the Midas Rex operating tool, surgeon Spetzler testified that Reynolds' description was remarkably accurate, and that at the time she was under EEG burst suppression (a clear sign that the brain is not active but in a state of deep unconsciousness), which is incompatible with anaesthetic awareness.
Another feature: Reynolds "saw" her body jump twice when during the rescusitation after the excision of the aneurism the surgeons had to administer two shocks to clear the ventricular fibrillation her heart had gone into. So Reynolds was somehow aware during cardiac arrest and an additional hypothermic coma, still full of barbiturates and no auditory brainstem response, indicating complete absence of brain activity. It is not remotely reasonable to suggest that she could have had normal brain-bound consciousness in that state.
I would add that to use an old saying, the Devil is in the details.
Details of over 100 investigated and confirmed veridical NDE cases are exhausively covered in the well-known compilation The Self Does Not Die by Rivas, Dirven, and Smit (
https://www.amazon.com/Self-Does-Not-Die...0997560800 ).
They collectively testify to the apparent separation of the soul or spirit from the physical body during NDEs and their observation of later confirmed details in both the physical and spiritual realms during their temporary experiences out of body. Experiences that can be best explained by the interactive dualism model. One of the best examples is the following, in summary:
Pam Reynolds Lowery, from Atlanta, Georgia, was an American singer-songwriter who, in the late 80s or early 90s, went to her physician with a complaint that she was experiencing severe dizziness, loss of speech, and difficulty in moving parts of her body. She was subsequently referred to a neurologist, who, after a CAT scan, revealed that she had a large aneurysm in her brain, very close to the brain stem, affecting her overall abilities. Because of the aneurysm’s position and its sheer size, Pam was told that she might not survive an operation. In 1991 it was decided to perform a rare and complex operation using special techniques, to tryto safely excise the aneurism.
Dr. Robert F. Spetzler, a neurosurgeon in Phoenix, Arizona, performed a rare procedure known as the hypothermic cardiac arrest while simultaneously removing the aneurysm. During the operation, Pam’s body temperature was kept at 60°F, her eyes were taped shut, the blood from her head had been entirely drained, and small plugs were placed in her ears emitting a loud clicking sound used to monitor brain activity and confirm flatline. This generated noise was loud enough to drown out ny awareness of voices in the operating room, aside from the fact that Reynolds was completely out anyway from (first) the general anaesthetics, and then from the hypothermic cardiac arrest. Clinically, she was dead during the major part of the operation. And yet, when she woke up, Pam could describe everything that happened in the operating room with eerily accurate detail.
Pam, 35, reported that sometime during the operation, she heard a sound that seemed to pull her out of her physical body and allowed her to float in the air above so that she could see what was going on. She said she felt more aware and that her eyesight was clearer than ever, but the strangest part for her was not seeing the unfamiliar instruments being used on her (which she did, in particular the special Midas Rex bone saw used by Spetzler); it was witnessing her deceased relatives. According to Pam, even though she didn’t want to return, her uncle brought her back to her body and pushed her inside once again.
It would be interesting to find out how Mandoki would explain this case (edit: using idealism as the model), not even considering the multiplicity of cases in The Self Does Not Die.