(2023-12-20, 05:36 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]As a functional dualism sure, but as a metaphysical argument this would be like saying radio waves or a router's wireless signal proves that there are two distinct substances.
That said, there is no definite resolution to the question of substance, or even how stuff of the same substance can interact. I'd even say the Hard Problem of Causation means demarcating substances is quite difficult.
It's not a metaphysical argument - it's the conclusion from empirical evidence (not from abstract reasoning alone) that numerous observations indicate that some form of interactional dualism is how mind and matter actually behave in human experience. In some paranormal experiences such as NDE OOBEs mind and matter don't seem to behave as a single substance, but more like two distinct substances that can interpenetrate without damage, or separate from each other with the spirit becoming a mobile center of consciousness. The experience of normal physical life seems very much to be where spirit resides in and intricately interpenetrates the brain in order to somehow interactionally manifest in the physical via the brain and body.
It is then up to the philosophers to metaphysically explain this rather messy evidence.
(2023-12-20, 11:27 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]It's not a metaphysical argument - it's the conclusion from empirical evidence (not from abstract reasoning alone) that numerous observations indicate that some form of interactional dualism is how mind and matter actually behave in human experience. In some paranormal experiences such as NDE OOBEs mind and matter don't seem to behave as a single substance, but more like two distinct substances that can interpenetrate without damage, or separate from each other with the spirit becoming a mobile center of consciousness. The experience of normal physical life seems very much to be where spirit resides in and intricately interpenetrates the brain in order to somehow interactionally manifest in the physical via the brain and body.
It is then up to the philosophers to metaphysically explain this rather messy evidence.
This seems to be a very selective piece of the paranormal evidence, ignoring things that have been already mentioned - reincarnation birthmarks, ectoplasm, PK, physical remnants/markets of spirits, Psi & psychedelics, etc...
To be clear I do think any believer in Survival has to note there is a distinction between the body and the soul/mind/spirit, but it isn't clear at all this requires there to be two substances. If what demarcates a substance is its causal interactivity, then people being able to perceive appartions and OOBErs suggests there is only one substance.
Descartes suggested two substances because he said Res Cogitans had no spatial extension among other qualities, but this one seems to be the most troublesome and the root of the Interaction Problem.
Of course Seems to me an extensionless soul doesn't go to the afterlife and experience other realities, nor does it get witnessed by people in our "physical" world.
As such even the evidence you refer to can be used to argue against two separate substances. What we could say is that there is a distinct spirit holding our mental faculties that utilizes the brain, why I mentioned radio waves and wireless signals. Those are distinct from radios and computers/smart-phones yet few people, AFAIK, would argue that the waves and signals indicate a separate "substance"...whatever "substance" means.
(2023-12-21, 12:02 AM)Laird Wrote: [ -> ]any in the ongoing exchange between Sci and nbtruthman), then please let me know and I'll move them back.
I'd move these back simply because they are more inline with this thread, and would be a distraction from your post.
(2023-12-21, 12:30 AM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]I'd move these back simply because they are more inline with this thread, and would be a distraction from your post.
Done.
, I've edited your
original response to add a link to the now-moved post to which it was responding. Feel free to re-edit to your liking.
(2023-12-20, 11:49 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]This seems to be a very selective piece of the paranormal evidence, ignoring things that have been already mentioned - reincarnation birthmarks, ectoplasm, PK, physical remnants/markets of spirits, Psi & psychedelics, etc...
To be clear I do think any believer in Survival has to note there is a distinction between the body and the soul/mind/spirit, but it isn't clear at all this requires there to be two substances. If what demarcates a substance is its causal interactivity, then people being able to perceive appartions and OOBErs suggests there is only one substance.
Descartes suggested two substances because he said Res Cogitans had no spatial extension among other qualities, but this one seems to be the most troublesome and the root of the Interaction Problem. Of course Seems to me an extensionless soul doesn't go to the afterlife and experience other realities, nor does it get witnessed by people in our "physical" world.
As such even the evidence you refer to can be used to argue against two separate substances. What we could say is that there is a distinct spirit holding our mental faculties that utilizes the brain, why I mentioned radio waves and wireless signals. Those are distinct from radios and computers/smart-phones yet few people, AFAIK, would argue that the waves and signals indicate a separate "substance"...whatever "substance" means.
Of course there are other types of allowed spirit/physical interactions besides the primary one which is embodiment, which is the mechanism involved in NDE OOBEs. These other sorts of paranormal manifestations can readily be explained as rare and exceptional special case interactions. Reincarnation birthmarks, for instance, are understandable as a situation where the newly inhabited or soon to be inhabited and controlled baby or fetus is physically influenced by the spirit.
(2023-12-21, 02:54 AM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]Of course there are other types of allowed spirit/physical interactions besides the primary one which is embodiment, which is the mechanism involved in NDE OOBEs. These other sorts of paranormal manifestations can readily be explained as rare and exceptional special case interactions. Reincarnation birthmarks, for instance, are understandable as a situation where the newly inhabited or soon to be inhabited and controlled baby or fetus is physically influenced by the spirit.
Allowed by who?
And then how is this entity or entities making it so some things are allowed and some are not? This seems to suggest that ultimately there is some third medium out of which the distinction of Mind and Matter is crafted...in addition to making us wonder why some reincarnation cases retain a physical reminder of a fatal wound and some do not...
Even seeing apparitions with our eyes, this suggests light* is working in the physical way it normally does.
I also think ectoplasm still remains unexplained in this paradigm since that isn't just an example of mind-matter harmoniously being linked. Also what happens in varied shamanic healings when the illness is transferred from the physical body to another physical object.
There's even a case
noted by anthropologist Edith Turner where a shamanic healing involves some kind of ectoplasm leaving the body. Who knows how many of these cases stretch across humanity's primordial history.
This isn't to say Idealism fares much better than Dualism, since it also has to give us rules to explain why a shaman can't just psychically heal someone without using any physical medium. I suppose one can use an Idealist-Simulation reference to "physical" reality being akin to the coded rules in a video game but as with all references to the Simulation Hypothesis when you can explain everything and anything you arguably actually weaken rather than strengthen your case...
*I actually think there is a case to be made that everything is made from a spiritual Light that gets "murkier" as it approaches the status of physical light but that's a discussion for later...
(2023-12-21, 06:24 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Allowed by who?
And then how is this entity or entities making it so some things are allowed and some are not? This seems to suggest that ultimately there is some third medium out of which the distinction of Mind and Matter is crafted...in addition to making us wonder why some reincarnation cases retain a physical reminder of a fatal wound and some do not...
Even seeing apparitions with our eyes, this suggests light* is working in the physical way it normally does.
I also think ectoplasm still remains unexplained in this paradigm since that isn't just an example of mind-matter harmoniously being linked. Also what happens in varied shamanic healings when the illness is transferred from the physical body to another physical object.
There's even a case noted by anthropologist Edith Turner where a shamanic healing involves some kind of ectoplasm leaving the body. Who knows how many of these cases stretch across humanity's primordial history.
This isn't to say Idealism fares much better than Dualism, since it also has to give us rules to explain why a shaman can't just psychically heal someone without using any physical medium. I suppose one can use an Idealist-Simulation reference to "physical" reality being akin to the coded rules in a video game but as with all references to the Simulation Hypothesis when you can explain everything and anything you arguably actually weaken rather than strengthen your case...
*I actually think there is a case to be made that everything is made from a spiritual Light that gets "murkier" as it approaches the status of physical light but that's a discussion for later...
These apparent rules are like the laws of physics - just "the way things work" in our reality. The ultimate source of this huge body of complex organized specified information must remain an ultimate mystery. Whatever the source is, it must be unmeasurably intelligent and powerful. Unless you believe that the laws of physics for instance have some sort of unintelligent cause unassociated with consciousness, or have always existed without any form of intelligent creative inventor. Talk about something coming from absolutely nothing.
(2023-12-21, 08:00 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]These apparent rules are like the laws of physics - just "the way things work" in our reality. The ultimate source of this huge body of complex organized specified information must remain an ultimate mystery. Whatever the source is, it must be unmeasurably intelligent and powerful. Unless you believe that the laws of physics for instance have some sort of unintelligent cause unassociated with consciousness, or have always existed without any form of intelligent creative inventor. Talk about something coming from absolutely nothing.
Oh I am saying the opposite here - if these powerful spirit entities are creating and maintaining this divide then what are they composed of and what are they making the "mental" and "physical" out of?
Note I lean toward theism, though more of the Limited God kind...
(2023-12-21, 08:07 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: [ -> ]Oh I am saying the opposite here - if these powerful spirit entities are creating and maintaining this divide then what are they composed of and what are they making the "mental" and "physical" out of?
Note I lean toward theism, though more of the Limited God kind...
Indeed it does look like there ultimately must be an all encompassing single mother medium out of which our experienced separate spiritual and physical domains are crafted. I already mentioned that the evidence indicates the existence of a modified interactional dualism emerging from some sort of a ground of being composed of "mind stuff". Monistic dualism?