The soul, suffering, healing, learning, and spirituality [Night Shift split]

I have to admit I am not seeing this quite the same as you are. If I willingly chose to temporarily erase my memory of being a transcendent entity then chose to enter a life of suffering....that is still me who made that choice?

For me it is certainly possible souls choose everything that happens to them in this life, but I just don't [think] the evidence points in that direction. At least not for every soul.

Since the very major parts of my unique identity as a transcendent soul entity would be my memories of countless experiences over many different human lifetimes, and the correspondingly complex resulting personality that emerged, without these memories and that resulting personality I don't think I would be the same entity. I think I would then be a different entity, though not entirely different since there would still be a continuous trail of awareness linking the two, but that would not be enough in itself to classify the throttled-down human entity as having the same identity. It seems to me that the transcendent soul entity which somehow made the choice of an upcoming human life of suffering (to be experienced by actually itself the animating higher psyche) could be classified as insane to a degree, or at least extremely masochistic.

I agree that there isn't much actual empirical evidence for souls choosing the broad outlines or even details of the upcoming life; it seems mostly to be from unsubstantiated spiritual teachings from various sources. But it still could be the case, as you mention, at least for some souls. That would leave unexplained the great majority of lives' paths - the random luck of the draw, or even arbitrarily decided upon by yet higher beings?

I agree that there isn't much actual empirical evidence for souls choosing the broad outlines or even details of the upcoming life; it seems mostly to be from unsubstantiated spiritual teachings from various sources. But it still could be the case, as you mention, at least for some souls. That would leave unexplained the great majority of lives' paths - the random luck of the draw, or even arbitrarily decided upon by yet higher beings?

To be clear there are enough cases to make it interesting, and lead me to believe that some souls are choosing at least some aspects of their incarnation.

The idea that souls are coming together prior to incarnation and deciding one will be a victim and one a victimizer seems to not agree with the sum total of afterlife and between life descriptions...though there also appears to be little consensus on the subject.

You don't seem to have engaged with my main point: 

Well I wasn't responding to you! I was trying to expand my own view of the issue.

People talk about choosing their next incarnation. If that phenomenon is not adequately supported well that is one thing, but arguing about its morality seems weird. I mean in normal reality if someone agrees to some gruelling test, they don't ask themselves if that is immoral!

It might be immoral if the actions were decided by a 'higher' being, but fundamentally I don't think that is what happens - but honestly it would be good to have a lot more data!

Temporarily, for an Earth lifetime that subjectively can seem to last almost forever (especially if it has a lot of suffering), the human exists as a separate unique and severely limited sentient being. How about considering that sentient being and his/her experiences in themselves as being very important and significant, since this human he/she individuality is quite different and separate from the vastly expanded soul consciousness?

The thing is, we can't know what many of those who suffer most actually feel. A good example, might be Stephen Hawking. For many years he could only communicate using various technological gadgets - but he fulfilled himself using his mind.

This is also evident in a number of extraordinary autistic savants, such as Kim Peak. Something is going on inside the minds of such people, but from an external perspective they appear (at least at first sight) to be out of it but probably suffering. Maybe some other autistics are thinking about abstractions about which we can only guess. Incidentally, Daniel Tammet is an interesting case because he can describe his world as well as experiencing it. His savantism is less extreme than Kim Peak, but that has left him the ability to explain. It would seem for example that he does what he does with numbers by visualising them as various shapes.

David

Well I wasn't responding to you! I was trying to expand my own view of the issue.

People talk about choosing their next incarnation. If that phenomenon is not adequately supported well that is one thing, but arguing about its morality seems weird. I mean in normal reality if someone agrees to some gruelling test, they don't ask themselves if that is immoral!

It might be immoral if the actions were decided by a 'higher' being, but fundamentally I don't think that is what happens - but honestly it would be good to have a lot more data!

The thing is, we can't know what many of those who suffer most actually feel. A good example, might be Stephen Hawking. For many years he could only communicate using various technological gadgets - but he fulfilled himself using his mind.

This is also evident in a number of extraordinary autistic savants, such as Kim Peak. Something is going on inside the minds of such people, but from an external perspective they appear (at least at first sight) to be out of it but probably suffering. Maybe some other autistics are thinking about abstractions about which we can only guess. Incidentally, Daniel Tammet is an interesting case because he can describe his world as well as experiencing it. His savantism is less extreme than Kim Peak, but that has left him the ability to explain. It would seem for example that he does what he does with numbers by visualising them as various shapes.

David

You make a good point about at least one class of unfortunate humans apparently suffering for a lifetime, but at least perhaps having found a compensating savant ability or abilities that lift them at least partially above the suffering (and even offers some form of partial fulfillment), which suffering you don't mention is mostly from physical and sometimes mental impairment but free of constant actual physical pain.

Unfortunately, this undoubtedly true rationalization is a class of special cases that still doesn't confront the true natural evil of prolonged physical pain and suffering in addition to physical and maybe mental disablement without any compensating factors, which still afflicts many humans maybe not for an entire lifetime but at least for a subjectively very long time.

These are the worst case scenarios that I have brought up, of long agonizing deaths from slowly metastasizing cancers, long disablement and PTSD from war, it goes on. In many of these cases we have every reason to assume that the victims are really in truth suffering a private hell. They will even say so. Can you rationalize these worst-case scenarios that actually occur in real life?

Here in the following is even a real-life example of at least a minor case like this, with a relative of mine who is presently finally mercifully in a coma after having suffered the severe grinding pain of a rare and inoperable and aggressive form of cancer which after first taking hold in him last October or so slowly but inexorably spread throughout his body. That's six months of a private hellish experience only slightly alleviated by powerful opiate drugs.

I invite you to speculate on the apparently twisted psychology of the soul being that supposedly actually made the deliberate choice of the human lifetime probably having this hellish end experience for the reasons often suggested - some sort of "soul learning". Can you even imagine that that being has much relation at all to the human incarnation that has had to go through this?

I never had the temerity to actually discuss this possibility with him (it would have been grossly improper, in addition to being on a subject he had no knowledge of), but I am sure he would have only angrily expelled me from the room for actually suggesting that in some sense he himself had actually chosen this extremely unpleasant end, or that it could have some ultimately redeeming purpose. You couldn't get a much more telling example of how fundamentally different are the soul and the human incarnation.

First let me repeat again, I do not think it makes sense to oppose a particular scientific theory based on the amount of suffering it implies. Would it make sense to reject the evidence of the various volcanic explosions in which a lot of people died, and presumably even more suffered on the edge of the affected zone - e.g. Krakatoa in 1883? I want to know the truth about the nature of the spiritual realm to the extent that that is possible.

You make a good point about at least one class of unfortunate humans apparently suffering for a lifetime, but at least perhaps having found a compensating savant ability or abilities that lift them at least partially above the suffering (and even offers some form of partial fulfillment), which suffering you don't mention is mostly from physical and sometimes mental impairment but free of constant actual physical pain.

My central point was that these cases might never even have been recognised - they hint at the possibility that there is more to these lives than we know about.

Unfortunately, this undoubtedly true rationalization is a class of special cases that still doesn't confront the true natural evil of prolonged physical pain and suffering in addition to physical and maybe mental disablement without any compensating factors, which still afflicts many humans maybe not for an entire lifetime but at least for a subjectively very long time.

These are the worst case scenarios that I have brought up, of long agonizing deaths from slowly metastasizing cancers, long disablement and PTSD from war, it goes on. In many of these cases we have every reason to assume that the victims are really in truth suffering a private hell. They will even say so. Can you rationalize these worst-case scenarios that actually occur in real life?

Here in the following is even a real-life example of at least a minor case like this, with a relative of mine who is presently finally mercifully in a coma after having suffered the severe grinding pain of a rare and inoperable and aggressive form of cancer which after first taking hold in him last October or so slowly but inexorably spread throughout his body. That's six months of a private hellish experience only slightly alleviated by powerful opiate drugs.

I am very glad that your relative is finally out of it. It must have been hard to discuss all this while this was going on, but you decided to do so.

Well in a way these are both cases of things that people do to other people. That is obvious in the case of war, but couldn't the medical profession arrange for people in this state to live out the rest of their lives in a coma, or couldn't some provision be made to euthanise such people? Here you have people doing nasty things to other people - which seems to be a common theme in this realm.

I invite you to speculate on the apparently twisted psychology of the soul being that supposedly actually made the deliberate choice of the human lifetime probably having this hellish end experience for the reasons often suggested - some sort of "soul learning". Can you even imagine that that being has much relation at all to the human incarnation that has had to go through this?

It only makes sense if the soul making the decision is the same one as the one who will endure the suffering.

I never had the temerity to actually discuss this possibility with him (it would have been grossly improper, in addition to being on a subject he had no knowledge of), but I am sure he would have only angrily expelled me from the room for actually suggesting that in some sense he himself had actually chosen this extremely unpleasant end, or that it could have some ultimately redeeming purpose. You couldn't get a much more telling example of how fundamentally different are the soul and the human incarnation.

A friend of mine from work lost his wife - his childhood sweetheart - to cancer a few years ago. I don't think she was in serious pain, but the whole process was quite protracted. At one point while she was still alive I tried to introduce the evidence that consciousness continues by discussing the NDE evidence. I'd hoped this might help him, but I got a very bad reaction from him. Eventually I suggested that I'd never mention such ideas unless he began the conversation, and we remain friends on that basis.

David

Thanks nbtruthman for replying to my previous posts.

I'm not offering any reply since I'm not looking for a debate or even to arrive at some group consensus.

I did start to draft something more as a non-specific response but it seemed to end up being simply an exercise in my own introspective thought, not really fitting here.

First let me repeat again, I do not think it makes sense to oppose a particular scientific theory based on the amount of suffering it implies. Would it make sense to reject the evidence of the various volcanic explosions in which a lot of people died, and presumably even more suffered on the edge of the affected zone - e.g. Krakatoa in 1883? I want to know the truth about the nature of the spiritual realm to the extent that that is possible.

My central point was that these cases might never even have been recognised - they hint at the possibility that there is more to these lives than we know about.
I am very glad that your relative is finally out of it. It must have been hard to discuss all this while this was going on, but you decided to do so.
It only makes sense if the soul making the decision is the same one as the one who will endure the suffering.

A friend of mine from work lost his wife - his childhood sweetheart - to cancer a few years ago. I don't think she was in serious pain, but the whole process was quite protracted. At one point while she was still alive I tried to introduce the evidence that consciousness continues by discussing the NDE evidence. I'd hoped this might help him, but I got a very bad reaction from him. Eventually I suggested that I'd never mention such ideas unless he began the conversation, and we remain friends on that basis.

David

I thought it was clear that I am not trying to argue that soul choice of upcoming incarnate lives is a false doctrine - I think it may in fact be the truth or a partial truth, whether or not it makes moral or any other kind of sense, or is basically outrageous. I am not opposing or rejecting the theory of soul choice - I am just exploring some of the ways in which, if this is actually true, this design of our reality at least strongly appears to be grossly unjust to human beings. That may be the way our reality works, but if so it sucks. It does not have to make sense either in order for it to be true - just consider some of the conundrums of quantum mechanics that continually seem to be confirmed by experiment.

I also just want to know the truth about the nature of the spiritual realm and its relationship with the physical, especially as regards to the effects on human beings.

That reaction of your friend to just the mentioning of the possibility of an afterlife and so on is exactly what I was concerned about with my relative. In his case the anger would have been a direct and understandable reaction. In the case of your friend it is harder to understand psychologically, except possibly as an outrage that you appeared to him to be trivializing this tragedy, and/or in part a defense reaction due to having invested a lifetime and his ego in a materialistic skepticism, that was being challenged by your remarks.

I thought it was clear that I am not trying to argue that soul choice of upcoming incarnate lives is a false doctrine - I think it may in fact be the truth or a partial truth, whether or not it makes moral or any other kind of sense, or is basically outrageous. I am not opposing or rejecting the theory of soul choice - I am just exploring some of the ways in which, if this is actually true, this design of our reality at least strongly appears to be grossly unjust to human beings. That may be the way our reality works, but if so it sucks. It does not have to make sense either in order for it to be true - just consider some of the conundrums of quantum mechanics that continually seem to be confirmed by experiment.

Bear in mind that all those who contribute to a painful end of life experience will (according to spiritual accounts) be forced to face up to what  they did as part of their life review - seeing what they did from the victims' perspective. Presumably that would include smug politicians who weren't prepared to face up to the consequences of some of the rules that they put in place. For example, I have heard it said that before politicians got interested in such matters, doctors eased people out of their pain a lot more efficiently.

I also just want to know the truth about the nature of the spiritual realm and its relationship with the physical, especially as regards to the effects on human beings.

Good!

That reaction of your friend to just the mentioning of the possibility of an afterlife and so on is exactly what I was concerned about with my relative. In his case the anger would have been a direct and understandable reaction. In the case of your friend it is harder to understand psychologically, except possibly as an outrage that you appeared to him to be trivializing this tragedy, and/or in part a defense reaction due to having invested a lifetime and his ego in a materialistic skepticism, that was being challenged by your remarks.

Remember that the UK seems to have moved further from Christianity than the US. I think it is very hard to get most people here to take even bog-standard NDE accounts seriously.

A few years back, I was sitting with three other men in a cafe and somehow the issue of the paranormal came up. All three said they did not believe in such things, but I said that there was decent evidence for NDE's. This caused one of them to describe a strange experience he had in which he went shopping with his grandma and suddenly felt he was suffocating and found himself floating near the ceiling. After a few seconds he 'woke up' and found his grandma was shaking him and shouting at him to wake up!

The other two had experienced some interesting events too, and my experiences were pretty feeble in comparison!

David

Well in a way these are both cases of things that people do to other people. That is obvious in the case of war, but couldn't the medical profession arrange for people in this state to live out the rest of their lives in a coma, or couldn't some provision be made to euthanise such people? Here you have people doing nasty things to other people - which seems to be a common theme in this realm.
David

[quote pid="56817" dateline="1711732138"]
Spontaneous cancers occuring due to uncontrollable internal biological factors aren't caused by evil human action, and these situations happened long before there was any capability to mercifully offer continuous coma or euthanasia.
[/quote]

I also just want to know the truth about the nature of the spiritual realm and its relationship with the physical, especially as regards to the effects on human beings.

I think I've never been truly convinced the afterlife offers answers to the great mysteries of existence, and I feel I have slowly made my peace with the fact that whatever happens after this life will likely have its own challenges and trials.