The main reason panpsychism is invalid?

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(2019-03-13, 05:49 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: But the argument does call into question the necessity of the organs if there is a soul.

After all, if the soul doesn't need sensory organs - why does the electron? Because it is instantiated in the world? But then what is the relationship of the soul to the body & the world?

I mean one can say the Form is the Soul that provides shape to matter...but even this becomes a challenge - when the the body dies why does the Form persist as a kind of "subtle body"? And if the Form holds the immaterial aspects of Mind including Intentionality, why can't the electron possess a "lower grade" Intentionality with its Form given every material thing under this classic philosophy needs Form to hold/shape/distinguish substance (the material cause)?

Why the necessity for physical organs if there is a soul? It is not an analysis, but a general explanatory framework would be teleological, that simply, this is the way reality is designed by very high level intelligences, for a purpose or purposes. The physical plane or level of existence is "designed" such that under almost all circumstances the human spirit must embody to exist in the physical and interface with it. 

One purpose could be the need for experience in a very limiting environment offering all sorts of challenges not available in spiritual realms where "thoughts are things". These challenges require a very "rigid" intractable level of reality requiring considerable effort to mold to various purposes much less to just survive. That in turn requires a spirit vehicle that is thoroughly a part of this "hard", heavy and rigid environment, in which the interface with the physical is through organs like the sensory and neural and all the other physical body systems. In this place thoughts are definitely not instantly converted to things; here, matter requires painstaking manipulation through these organs. 

The soul in its native habitat of the spiritual realms doesn't need sensory organs or a brain because such things are not required for the intended experience in the spiritual realms. 

Perhaps the electron doesn't have even rudimentary consciousness, and this is simply because it isn't necessary for the electron's role as a fundamental component of physical reality. 

Of course, "it's just designed that way" is not any answer to the human need to intellectualize, analyze and understand the inner workings of what is probably fundamentally humanly impenetrable.
(This post was last modified: 2019-03-14, 09:55 AM by nbtruthman.)
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(2019-03-14, 09:44 AM)nbtruthman Wrote: Why the necessity for physical organs if there is a soul? It is not an analysis, but a general explanatory framework would be teleological, that simply, this is the way reality is designed by very high level intelligences, for a purpose or purposes. The physical plane or level of existence is "designed" such that under almost all circumstances the human spirit must embody to exist in the physical and interface with it. 

One purpose could be the need for experience in a very limiting environment offering all sorts of challenges not available in spiritual realms where "thoughts are things". These challenges require a very "rigid" intractable level of reality requiring considerable effort to mold to various purposes much less to just survive. That in turn requires a spirit vehicle that is thoroughly a part of this "hard", heavy and rigid environment, in which the interface with the physical is through organs like the sensory and neural and all the other physical body systems. In this place thoughts are definitely not instantly converted to things; here, matter requires painstaking manipulation through these organs. 

The soul in its native habitat of the spiritual realms doesn't need sensory organs or a brain because such things are not required for the intended experience in the spiritual realms. 

Perhaps the electron doesn't have even rudimentary consciousness, and this is simply because it isn't necessary for the electron's role as a fundamental component of physical reality. 

Of course, "it's just designed that way" is not any answer to the human need to intellectualize, analyze and understand the inner workings of what is probably fundamentally humanly impenetrable.

I don't disagree with this as possibility, I was just noting the article is meant to be an argument against Panpsychism from the view of Classic Philosophy - from what I've seen that means Thomist-Aristotilean.

In that world view the Form which gives shape to the primal chaos of mattter (Hyle) is also taken to be the Soul [in humans]. So electrons have Forms, they are just not thought by Egnor to have sensation or intellect. Yet this seems to me a mere assumption.

I think Panpsychism as usually presented does have problems (How do the little bits of qualia add up?), and I agree with Egnor about the immateriality of Intentionality, but I don't think one can say "they don't have Intentionality b/c they lack the necessary parts for sensation" without making an argument against souls.

I am also not as convinced as Egnor that all consciousness is about something in the sense of having thoughts about things - after all if we have thoughts about things through the senses surely sensation comes first and could be without Intentionality? Additionally what to make of our mathematical thinking, which Aquinas would say is what ensures the immortality of the soul - we may learn through the senses but we seem capable of reasoning without them?

None of what I'm saying makes Panpsychism true nor the Thomist-Aristotiliean tradition false. What I suspect will decide the place of either position in history is Psi and possibly NDEs/mysticism. That and after having understood the brain to its constituent particles and experimentally confirmed certain ideas related to QM, one finds the best explanation is one of those or something else.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2019-03-14, 04:01 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel.)
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