Spoon bending and fraudulent Geller

Proof that spoon bending is fraudulent?

Well Geller is almost certainly a fraud.

Not sure this invalidates all claims of spoon bending, though I've never thought it was that convincing as a demonstration of Psi.

[Ninshub]

Not sure this invalidates all claims of spoon bending

Yes to this. I have no opinion about or interest in Geller but the thread title is implicitly logically self-defeating. One example of spoon bending as fraudulous would not proove all spoon bending is fraudulous.

Yes to this. I have no opinion about or interest in Geller but the thread title is implicitly logically self-defeating. One example of spoon bending as fraudulous would not proove all spoon bending is fraudulous.

Yeah there can be real incidents of spoon bending via Psi though the process often seems to make me question whether Psi is involved.

It's probably one of those things that you have to try for yourself knowing that you aren't likely to convince others even if what you experience is genuine Psi.

I suppose Geller is relevant because no-one was talking about spoon-bending until he appeared on the scene. Nowadays I regard him as an entertainer but I don't think that is all he has ever been. It is a long time ago that he was in his heyday - perhaps even before he became widely known he was active on a small scale.

It's really hard to get to the bottom of what he was doing in every field, certainly he was investigated for psychokinesis and telepathy or clairvoyance as part of the Stargate Project, apparently with some success. In that context I don't think he was an entertainer. There was some rigour in the test protocols which was very different to a stage performance.

I suppose Geller is relevant because no-one was talking about spoon-bending until he appeared on the scene. Nowadays I regard him as an entertainer but I don't think that is all he has ever been. It is a long time ago that he was in his heyday - perhaps even before he became widely known he was active on a small scale.

It's really hard to get to the bottom of what he was doing in every field, certainly he was investigated for psychokinesis and telepathy or clairvoyance as part of the Stargate Project, apparently with some success. In that context I don't think he was an entertainer. There was some rigour in the test protocols which was very different to a stage performance.

IIRC Braude felt there were some demonstrations of Psi by Geller and others who were also known to commit fraud that we might include in our data-sets because the controls were arguably tight enough to prevent any fraud...but I just think this puts proponents on shaky ground.




This recalls those mega-church faith healers and their fraudulent tricks when they try to say they are using the power of God - whatever that is - to heal...If proponents allow known frauds to be included in data sets I think parapsychology would be seen as religion more than serious science.

Well, I think there's a need to beware of smear campaigns too - such as that mounted against Eben Alexander. In a lot of people's minds these campaigners have been very successful in convincing them, almost like a word-association game that the correct response in these cases is 'fake' or 'fraud'. It is too easy to go along with this tide. I don't have any certainty or particular opinion about Geller but I have some open-mindedness.

Proof that spoon bending is fraudulent?

Hi Brian.
While I'm generally very doubtful toward PK in general, the answer to this is no.

There are reports of spoon bending which cannot be accounted for in terms of trickery.

Even Loyd Auerbach - a magician who has performed spoon bending tricks - has reported genuine PK spoon bending experiences that cannot be accounted for in terms of illusionism.

Well, I think there's a need to beware of smear campaigns too - such as that mounted against Eben Alexander. In a lot of people's minds these campaigners have been very successful in convincing them, almost like a word-association game that the correct response in these cases is 'fake' or 'fraud'. It is too easy to go along with this tide. I don't have any certainty or particular opinion about Geller but I have some open-mindedness.

Ah that's a bad example for me b/c while I agree there was definitely a smear campaign launched by pseudo-skeptics I'm not convinced Alexander is telling the truth about his NDE either.

I definitely accept cases as possible that other people might consider unlikely, but in general I think the evidence pile proponents use should try to avoid the more suspicious cases where we suspect fraud. At the least we should avoid having our "best case" pile or "star case" set consist of any suspicious cases.

The alternative it seems to me is parapsychology gets marked with the same gullibility charge that haunts believers in religious miracles. One only has to look to the way ID gets dismissed to want to try and avoid that.

Well, a lot of stuff just goes on quietly in the background, no-one bothers trying to attack it/them. But once a case or a person becomes famous, known to the public, then the heavy negative publicity is mobilised.

What I'm not convinced of is that all the relatively unknown cases would fare any better if by random circumstance they happened to be propelled into the limelight. It's just too convenient that high-profile cases get knocked down in terms of public perception. I'm not convinced that if Alexander and Geller were obscure nonentities that these negative perceptions would have arisen in this way.