(2020-12-24, 09:42 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Let me state this another way, in the hopes someone can provide an adequate answer after all these years.
1. There's no consciousness in the Universe. Just physical stuff that is quantifiable.
2. This physical stuff is arranged into a particular structure and consciousness, the qualitative first person PoV, suddenly exists.
What goes between steps 1 & 2?
The evolution of the structure.
~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(2020-12-28, 03:42 PM)Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Wrote: The evolution of the structure.
~~ Paul
Everyone agrees the structure (the brain) underwent evolution.
Why does evolution allow there to be Something (Consciousness) when there was Nothing (Non-conscious stuff)?
At what point in the evolution is the structure conscious?
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2020-12-28, 07:34 PM)OmniVersalNexus Wrote: When we started getting hungry apparently 
Still a when, not a why or how.
This is why I think Physicalism is muddled in its explanations and ultimately incoherent for the reason clearly stated by neuroscientist PhD and New Atheist horseman Sam Harris ->
You can't Something from Nothing.
There are a lot of "just so" stories but they all either assume consciousness in some way or just erase it from existence with no rational way to get it back.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'
- Bertrand Russell
(2020-12-28, 06:50 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: Everyone agrees the structure (the brain) underwent evolution.
Why does evolution allow there to be Something (Consciousness) when there was Nothing (Non-conscious stuff)?
At what point in the evolution is the structure conscious?
I have no idea. We aren't even sure which parts of the brain are conscious now.
What if a sound repeated itself in the brain until you located its origin? Would that be consciousness?
~~ Paul
If the existence of a thing is indistinguishable from its nonexistence, we say that thing does not exist. ---Yahzi
(2020-12-29, 10:03 AM)malf Wrote: Why are you putting arbitrary constraints on ‘stuff’?
That seems to hamstring even some immaterialists.
And there I was thinking that I'm doing ok following this thread and now you've gone and lost me, malf. What arbitrary constraints are you talking about? As far as I can see, all Sci is asking is "how"? If consciousness evolved in the material (stuff) of the brain, the question needs to be asked - how? He's not saying that matter can't produce consciousness but asking, if that is to be the conclusion, how it does so. I agree with him - it seems to me that there is no explanation of how anywhere to be found. Only an assertion that the material of the brain produces consciousness. When asked how, the answer is usually, because it does!
I do not make any clear distinction between mind and God. God is what mind becomes when it has passed beyond the scale of our comprehension.
Freeman Dyson
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