Physicalism Redux

Although I admit, it ‘feels’ like there’s a difference.

So you subscribe to a form of eliminative materialism then?

Edit: Also the feeling is the point, since like what was said about computers, there isn't a reason or mechanism that makes it so we should feel anything. I've got sympathy towards materialistic attempts to solve the hard problem but I view it as more of an opportunity for materialism to move forward in doing so, not just retreading the same ground they are now.

And there I was thinking that I'm doing ok following this thread and now you've gone and lost me, malf. What arbitrary constraints are you talking about? As far as I can see, all Sci is asking is "how"? If consciousness evolved in the material (stuff) of the brain, the question needs to be asked - how? He's not saying that matter can't produce consciousness but asking, if that is to be the conclusion, how it does so. I agree with him - it seems to me that there is no explanation of how anywhere to be found. Only an assertion that the material of the brain produces consciousness. When asked how, the answer is usually, because it does!

My point was that Sci had to preface ‘stuff’ with ‘non conscious’, which is presumptive at best.

I suspect there are panpsychism sympathisers on this forum who would reject this brute fact.

So you subscribe to a form of eliminative materialism then?

Edit: Also the feeling is the point, since like what was said about computers, there isn't a reason or mechanism that makes it so we should feel anything. I've got sympathy towards materialistic attempts to solve the hard problem but I view it as more of an opportunity for materialism to move forward in doing so, not just retreading the same ground they are now.

Living systems appear to be made solely of stuff, the elements of nature.

However, living systems have billions of years of adaptive sensory interactions with their environment guide their biology and prime the newborn for its existence.

At what point does a human have feelings?

Living systems appear to be made solely of stuff, the elements of nature.

However, living systems have billions of years of adaptive sensory interactions with their environment guide their biology and prime the newborn for its existence.

At what point does a human have feelings?

I dunno, somewhere. Hence the problem. Though I don't feel like just that lack of knowing is enough to enforce an eliminative position. If we somehow still don't know how consciousness happens after years and years I think it's more of an indication that our theories of nature are wrong more than our firsthand observations.

Though you didnt answer my question, which position do you subscribe to?

My point was that Sci had to preface ‘stuff’ with ‘non conscious’, which is presumptive at best.

I suspect there are panpsychism sympathisers on this forum who would reject this brute fact.

I don't speak for Sci but my take on his question was that he was trying to present the materialist point of view as a starting point and then asking how does consciousness arise from that.

Living systems appear to be made solely of stuff, the elements of nature.

However, living systems have billions of years of adaptive sensory interactions with their environment guide their biology and prime the newborn for its existence.

At what point does a human have feelings?

What is it (or who is it) that feels? As I understand things, the brain doesn't feel anything. You can drill or cut into a brain an it doesn't feel the drill or knife. Feelings are registered in the brain but not felt by the brain. Chemicals in the brain or electrical activity in the brain modify the feelings. But what is it that feels those feelings?

I dunno, somewhere. Hence the problem. Though I don't feel like just that lack of knowing is enough to enforce an eliminative position. If we somehow still don't know how consciousness happens after years and years I think it's more of an indication that our theories of nature are wrong more than our firsthand observations.

Though you didnt answer my question, which position do you subscribe to?

You already asked me and I answered on page 2 of this thread.

You already asked me and I answered on page 2 of this thread.

My bad that shit was bloody ages ago.

My bad that shit was bloody ages ago.

No worries

What is it (or who is it) that feels? As I understand things, the brain doesn't feel anything. You can drill or cut into a brain an it doesn't feel the drill or knife. Feelings are registered in the brain but not felt by the brain. Chemicals in the brain or electrical activity in the brain modify the feelings. But what is it that feels those feelings?

As part of biological process trying to assess itself, I feel we are too close to confidently judge those things.