Orch-OR discussion

From article on Orch-OR theory:


It seems to me, that as Paul A. has apparently already commented, Orch-OR doesn't even attempt to resolve the Hard Problem - it is still claiming that consciousness is the essence of "something" related to space-time physical system structural information. "Information" either in the abstract or as embodied in something physical is worlds away existentially from whatever is the essence of the qualia of subjective experiential consciousness. IIT looks to also have the same problem.

You have to look at the what the authors themselves are writing.

Consciousness and the Quantum Mind

Thomas R. Verny M.D.

• Today mathematicians and physicists generally accept the fact that the world is fundamentally governed by quantum rules.
  
  
• Our bodies and minds are governed by a confluence of classic and quantum laws of physics.
  
  
• Orch OR may provide a bridge between neuroscience and more spiritual approaches to consciousness.
  
  
• Quantum biology explains how the mind affects matter, which we know it does—think placebo effect, psychosomatic medicine, etc.
  

In episode 30 of the Quantum Consciousness series, Justin Riddle sits down with Stuart Hameroff to get an update on current events in the Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR) Model. This interview took place on August 30th, 2022 in his home in Tucson, AZ. The interview covered four major topics.

Our discussion of these topics is interleaved with my reaction, summary, and commentary on the topic of discussion.

First, we discussed a recent submitted study that found coherent transmission of excitons between tubulin proteins in a microtubule. This study provides evidence for long range quantum coherence in microtubules, which is a requirement for the Orch-OR model to be grounded in microtubule function.

Second, Stuart explains some unpublished pilot data that find superradiant photon emission in microtubules for multiple seconds. This finding has multiple implications. First off, this could be evidence of sustained quantum coherence in microtubule on the order of fractions of a second to multiple seconds. If true, then this implies that the slow cognitive processes of the human mind could be instantiated in slower quantum computations. In addition, this implies that coherent light emission could be a means by which multiple microtubules become entangled to form a network of quantum bits – in essence, a quantum computer.

For the third topic, we discuss a recent review paper published by Stuart that explores the idea that the brain is organized in a biological hierarchy spanning multiple spatiotemporal scales. A collaborator of his, Anirban Bandyopadhyay, claims to have recorded coherent kilohertz and megahertz electrical activity from the scalp of humans in what he calls a dodecogram. This data is currently unpublished and I am personally skeptical as this would require coherent activity in this very fast frequency domain across a large spatial swath of cortex to be picked up from the scalp.

At this point, I ask a series of questions to Stuart on the relationship between human cognition and microtubule function. The Orch-OR model claims that slow human cognition is a “beat” generated from much faster microtubule function. However, in my view, this beat explanation suggest that human cognition might be emergent, or epiphenomenal, which is not something that Stuart or myself are comfortable with.

Finally, we discuss the recent controversy surrounding a study conducted to test the so-called “Diosi-Penrose objective reduction” model. In short another researcher proposed a similar theory to Penrose’s objective reduction model of wave function collapse. In this other theory, the collapse of the wave function was suggested to emit radiation. In this recent experimental study, they found no evidence of radiation emission upon collapse of the wave function. Therefore, the authors of this study concluded that the Diosi OR model was incorrect, but then drew the conclusion that therefore Orch-OR and Penrose OR are not supported by evidence. Stuart refutes this by explaining that Penrose OR does not propose the emission of radiation. I have included chapters in this video so that you can skip to the interview if you so desire. I hope you enjoy!

=-=-=

I remember on a forum (completely unrelated to those discussions but with off-topic threads allowed) A discussion about the Hard Problem of Consciousness happened.
In the middle, someone (not necessarily a proponent) suggested that Orch-OR could be a new solution.
The answers were exactly what you would think of pseudo-skeptics, with extraordinary claims about it being "falsified in multiple experiments like creationism" yet only mentioning Tegmark's opinion on it. "Brain doesn't have the condition for quantum phenomena" "Penrose is saying this nonsense because he hates AI" and the classic "woo" term.
The individual mentioned quantum processes in nature, and they responded that it "everything has quantum processes, but it's clear that consciousness doesn't need it, and one I found particularly funny:
"Geometric solar systems have evidence too, do you believe in it?"
Not defending or arguing against it, but I found it amusing.
The tone was similar to a article I read about it, but the article was far less rude, and while the accusations of woo and arguments about "advancements in discovering the mechanisms of subjetive experiences using classical systems" were present, the arrogance was not as strong, not discarding the possibility that someday all mental states and subjetive experiences could be explained by QM.

The Theory That Consciousness Is a Quantum System Gains Support

Denyse O'Leary

At New Scientist last week, science writer and editor George Musser talked about the way a theory of consciousness that sees the brain as a quantum system is now under reluctant consideration. Musser, author of Putting Ourselves Back in the Equation (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2023) went to visit anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, who — with theoretical physicist Roger Penrose — advances the quantum-based Orch Or Theory (orchestrated objective reduction of the quantum state).

From Musser's own article, which is sadly behind a paywall:

With anaesthetics and brain organoids, we are finally testing the idea that quantum effects explain consciousness – and the early results suggest this long-derided idea may have been misconstrued

The Theory That Consciousness Is a Quantum System Gains Support
Denyse O'Leary
From Musser's own article, which is sadly behind a paywall:

With anaesthetics and brain organoids, we are finally testing the idea that quantum effects explain consciousness – and the early results suggest this long-derided idea may have been misconstrued...

I don't think so. My response to this is best furnished by repeating my post of some time ago, at https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-o...6#pid47856.

"It seems to me, .....Orch-OR doesn't even attempt to resolve the Hard Problem - it is still claiming that consciousness is the essence of "something" related to space-time physical system structural information. "Information" either in the abstract or as embodied in something physical is worlds away existentially from whatever is the essence of the qualia of subjective experiential consciousness. It looks to also have the same problem. A whole library of information on what it is like to experience the color red and on the neurological processes involved and on the physics of the elecromagnetic waves couldn't possibly be conscious and actually aware of and perceive red."

Psi has quoted a description (furnished by its authors) of the Hameroff/Penrose theory - excerpts below, at https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-o...4#pid49924 :

"Second, Stuart explains some unpublished pilot data that find superradiant photon emission in microtubules for multiple seconds. This finding has multiple implications. First off, this could be evidence of sustained quantum coherence in microtubule on the order of fractions of a second to multiple seconds. If true, then this implies that the slow cognitive processes of the human mind could be instantiated in slower quantum computations. In addition, this implies that coherent light emission could be a means by which multiple microtubules become entangled to form a network of quantum bits – in essence, a quantum computer.

For the third topic, we discuss a recent review paper published by Stuart that explores the idea that the brain is organized in a biological hierarchy spanning multiple spatiotemporal scales. A collaborator of his, Anirban Bandyopadhyay, claims to have recorded coherent kilohertz and megahertz electrical activity from the scalp of humans in what he calls a dodecogram. This data is currently unpublished and I am personally skeptical as this would require coherent activity in this very fast frequency domain across a large spatial swath of cortex to be picked up from the scalp.

At this point, I ask a series of questions to Stuart on the relationship between human cognition and microtubule function. The Orch-OR model claims that slow human cognition is a “beat” generated from much faster microtubule function. However, in my view, this beat explanation suggest that human cognition might be emergent, or epiphenomenal, which is not something that Stuart or myself are comfortable with."

Doesn't this clearly indicate that according to the theory of Orch-OR, consciousness is somehow one and the same as a substantive objective "thing" consisting of an elaborate "quantum computer" mechanized in the microscopic structure of the brain, combined with the actions and interactions of parts of this "thing"? "Sustained quantum coherence in microtubules" and their actions and interactions are of the physical world and are described in objective terms. But the essence of consciousness is subjective conscious perception, which is not physical at all, where all of the parameters and properties of consciousness are also immaterial. Consciousness and the physical are apparently two fundamentally separate realms of existence. The Hard Problem is the problem of explaining immaterial subjective consciousness in physical terms, as something physical or consisting of the (computational or other) actions and interactions of said physical systems, and Orch-OR runs squarely into it.

I don't think so. My response to this is best furnished by repeating my post of some time ago, at https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-o...6#pid47856.


Psi has quoted a description (furnished by its authors) of the Hameroff/Penrose theory - excerpts below, at https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-o...4#pid49924 :


Doesn't this clearly indicate that according to the theory of Orch-OR, consciousness is somehow one and the same as a substantive objective "thing" consisting of an elaborate "quantum computer" mechanized in the microscopic structure of the brain, combined with the actions and interactions of parts of this "thing"? "Sustained quantum coherence in microtubules" and their actions and interactions are of the physical world and are described in objective terms. But the essence of consciousness is subjective conscious perception, which is not physical at all, where all of the parameters and properties of consciousness are also immaterial. Consciousness and the physical are apparently two fundamentally separate realms of existence. The Hard Problem is the problem of explaining immaterial subjective consciousness in physical terms, as something physical or consisting of the (computational or other) actions and interactions of said physical systems, and Orch-OR runs squarely into it.

It depends on if one says that Orch-OR is a generative explanation of how consciousness is produced, or is it an explanation for how an already present consciousness enters the body.

Hammeroff, from everything he's said including his belief in the possibility of Survival and transcendent morality, is at least saying the latter. (Though he may think of this as a focusing of some everpresent Ur-Mind, OTOH he has written about "quantum souls".)

With Penrose it's not as clear what he believes, but he does seem to at least lean toward if not endorse certain aspects of Platonism and has considered that particles leaving a state of superposition is a conscious decision...

It depends on if one says that Orch-OR is a generative explanation of how consciousness is produced, or is it an explanation for how an already present consciousness enters the body.

Hammeroff, from everything he's said including his belief in the possibility of Survival and transcendent morality, is at least saying the latter. (Though he may think of this as a focusing of some everpresent Ur-Mind, OTOH he has written about "quantum souls".)

With Penrose it's not as clear what he believes, but he does seem to at least lean toward if not endorse certain aspects of Platonism and has considered that particles leaving a state of superposition is a conscious decision...

I don't know. Hameroff in his own website describing the Orch-OR theory makes it pretty clear he is talking about the physical Orch-OR process generating consciousness, not receiving, transducing and transmitting it. See the following excerpt, from https://hameroff.arizona.edu/research-ov...20to%20the :

"In the mid-1990s Hameroff teamed with British physicist Sir Roger Penrose to develop the controversial theory of consciousness called “orchestrated objective reduction” – Orch OR theory – in which consciousness derives from quantum computations in microtubules inside brain neurons, quantum computations connected to the fine- scale structure of spacetime geometry.
...................................
In the mid 1990s we published the Penrose-Hameroff theory of ‘orchestrated objective reduction’ (‘Orch OR’) which suggests consciousness arises from quantum vibrations ‘orchestrated’ in microtubules inside brain neurons, orchestrated vibrations which are proposed to interfere, ‘collapse’ and resonate across scale, control neuronal firings, and generate consciousness."

It’s a mystery to me why quantum computations should be able to explain qualia. I’m not surprised nobody ever picked up on this idea.

I don't know. Hameroff in his own website describing the Orch-OR theory makes it pretty clear he is talking about the physical Orch-OR process generating consciousness, not receiving, transducing and transmitting it. See the following excerpt, from https://hameroff.arizona.edu/research-ov...20to%20the :

If you follow Hammeroff enough you'll see him write/speak about his thoughts regarding God, souls, etc.

In any case there are going to be correlations at some level between the apparent matter than makes up brains/bodies and the conscious self. If the correlations *have* to go down to the QM level a lot of pseudoskeptical propaganda takes a hit even if the explanation would still be considered materialist.