Michael Sudduth's critique of the Leininger case as reincarnation or psi evidence

I tend to agree with you, that it feels less likely that there are new souls than reincarnated ones.

But it seems possible some souls are new?

Isn't a lot of this just unanswerable, Sci ? I mean there will be (probably) an answer to all these questions, just that we don't have it here. You may remember that I stated that I know I've been here before and I know it without any question, although it is of course no use whatsoever to anyone else. And I don't say it thinking that it will be any use to anyone else, I wouldn't be so foolish. Well I hope I wouldn't.

My ideas (for what they're worth). What never began, cannot end. "God" the prime mover or the collective prime mover divides himself up infinitely so that he can experience himself.  He (yes of course it's a man, that's why we're in such a mess, duh !). There are cycles and an end to each cycle (the completed cycle is when everyone, every unit of god has played out every possibilty. 

In other words, until everyone has experienced everything from every perspective to their absolute satisfaction or not. We do this because there is nothing else to do. And then we do it all again. That's my best guess and probably all completely wrong.

That could easily be our friend Keith Augustine, Brian. He doesn't debunk anything, he's nit picking and making generalisations which have been dealt with. (Pleasant guy, though, very polite) 

One example. He says that these stories come from families that already believe in reincarnation. Whilst there are a huge number of cases (Stevenson collected them) like that, we also have plenty of cases from the west. Secondly, many of these stories emerge at very young ages as one would expect (not 10-15 years later as he says) and those are well documented. 

What I would say to you Brian and those who don't like the idea of reincarnation (I don't particularly) is don't worry about it. There is nothing any of us can do about what is so and what is not, and presumably if we do come back (which I personally know to be the case, damn blast it) we will all be okay with it. And if we don't, well you can stay in paradise forever and I don't mean that sarcastically (wouldn't we all like that).

[Ninshub]

He says that these stories come from families that already believe in reincarnation. Whilst there are a huge number of cases (Stevenson collected them) like that, we also have plenty of cases from the west.

And in the East, cases were often documented where it happened in ways (questions of caste, etc.) contrary to the cultural beliefs of the communities/regions.

That's okay, but I would say your statement is the more logically incoherent. When does the creator bring the soul into existence, then ? (Remember, the soul must be immortal, before you answer). Is it at conception ? Sometime during gestation ? When the child emerges from the womb ? This is in effect invoking magic (hey presto, there's your soul). 

And what about babies/children that die in birth or even when they are a few months old ? God bestowed on them an immortal soul for what reason ? Two minutes in an operating room and boom, off to heaven ? Makes no sense to me, Silence. Reincarnation makes a lot of sense, however.

Fair enough (to the point in bold).

For me personally, one thing I generally do NOT have angst over is the logic related to these things.  While I don't have much of a formal metaphysical view, I do tend to have faith that whatever the "truth" is it is likely beyond my current ability to truly understand.  So, if something in this arena (e.g., reincarnation, or a Creator creating souls) seems logically inconsistent I don't necessarily dismiss it.

I struggle like you (and many others) with the types of questions you posed.  Hard to fathom any benign source for many of them.  Similar to the challenges in wresting with the proverbial problem of evil.

Anyway, good discussion here all.  (At least for me!)

And in the East, cases were often documented where it happened in ways (questions of caste, etc.) contrary to the cultural beliefs of the communities/regions.

Indeed, Ian and I also find it particularly interesting just to listen to ordinary parents who are willing to talk about this stuff. What they hear from their young ones etc. Definite unrelated talents, too, fears and phobias. How can a phobia be past on down through cells ?

Isn't a lot of this just unanswerable, Sci ? I mean there will be (probably) an answer to all these questions, just that we don't have it here. You may remember that I stated that I know I've been here before and I know it without any question, although it is of course no use whatsoever to anyone else. And I don't say it thinking that it will be any use to anyone else, I wouldn't be so foolish. Well I hope I wouldn't.

My ideas (for what they're worth). What never began, cannot end. "God" the prime mover or the collective prime mover divides himself up infinitely so that he can experience himself.  He (yes of course it's a man, that's why we're in such a mess, duh !). There are cycles and an end to each cycle (the completed cycle is when everyone, every unit of god has played out every possibilty. 

In other words, until everyone has experienced everything from every perspective to their absolute satisfaction or not. We do this because there is nothing else to do. And then we do it all again. That's my best guess and probably all completely wrong.

I agree it's not truly answerable, just as metaphysics has no ultimate solution.

I'm rather fickle on what kind of afterlife I'd want. At times I want there to be some ultimate rest, even if not for trillions of years...other times I want there to be an endless cycle of lives...other times I imagine something out of a fantasy novel or comic book movie, though hopefully as a hero and not one of the hapless people burned by dragons or crushed by toppled buildings...

I agree it's not truly answerable, just as metaphysics has no ultimate solution.

I'm rather fickle on what kind of afterlife I'd want. At times I want there to be some ultimate rest, even if not for trillions of years...other times I want there to be an endless cycle of lives...other times I imagine something out of a fantasy novel or comic book movie, though hopefully as a hero and not one of the hapless people burned by dragons or crushed by toppled buildings...

From what I've been able to 'glimpse' (very dimly) from people that have been there recently (and I may as well say this now as one day I won't be able to) it's not something that can even be imagined. There's an all encompasssing "love" there (it's not just love) that we don't have here. It's nothing to do with kisses and romance, it's something that we've forgotten even exists. But it's obviously so extraordinary that it's beyond description (well it would be, wouldn't it says the sceptic). 

I spoke to one particular man for hours on the phone, many times, just trying to understand. "Just give me the picture will you...please!" > "Okay, beautiful landscapes...but not landscapes like we know them"  (right...well please tell me why they are different)..."I can't, I don't have the words! Nothing at all anywhere in the world like it here" (how about the Philippines?) "Nope!"  

"There's buildings...but not buildings, made out of some kind of material, a bit like marble, bit like glass but actually nothing like either (right...so which is it is it marble or glass?) "forget that, let me see if I can think of something else" ...and so on....

This man was documented dead on the floor for four minutes. Previously (he said) he was never happy, quite judgemental of others and 'tight as a tic' with his money. After his experience he was exactly the opposite and now described his body (what he previously thought was him of course) as that thing that is going to dust. He didn't care, that I was able to establish. He had absolutely no fear of death at all. Why and how can that happen just because your heart stops for several minutes is remarkable, however one prefers to look at it. 

Anyway, going well off topic here.

[Ninshub]

And in the East, cases were often documented where it happened in ways (questions of caste, etc.) contrary to the cultural beliefs of the communities/regions.

This can give a bit more meat to what I said. From my review of Ian Stevenson's 1975 Cases of the Reincarnation Type Volume 1: Ten Cases in India, posted back at Skeptiko lo these many years ago...

There’s also an interesting discussion of the data in relation to Indian ideas of reincarnation and karma. Stevenson attempts to define different concepts of karma in Indian thought, and how the data so far gathered conflicts with those ideas. “In fact we have found almost nothing whatever to support the idea of karma, and only four cases – out of hundreds now – in which the data even suggest it.” (p. 34) When going over the validity of his methods, he mentions that this undermines any charge of suspicion against his interpreters (i.e. that they would modify the testimony of the subjects or witnesses to suit their own ideas), since what they heard from the subjects often puzzled and disappointed them in terms of their personal religious or philosophical convictions (Buddhist, etc.).

A related point here, Stevenson points out, is how he has often heard Hindus being convinced of the fact that humans reincarnate in nonhuman animal bodies, yet the data found was in near complete contradiction to this idea. (This also supports the idea that the children were not just engaging in fantasies.) (p. 64)

There is also an interesting discussion of how Westerners assume Indians, such as represented in these cases, to be believers in reincarnation, and how that should somehow make these stories more suspicious than when the phenomenon appears in Western countries. Stevenson goes into some depth into explaining how the belief in reincarnation is distributed among Hindus. If we look into Indians living in villages (as opposed to cities or larger towns), there is a sharp contrast between high caste villagers, some of whom may be schooled in Hindu teaching and therefore may more likely to have such belief, vs. lower castes where a much lower incidence of belief in reincarnation is observed, and who are frequently completely unfamiliar with concepts of rebirth. Stevenson indicates how he has never come across any villager who wanted to “intrust” him on the idea of reincarnation (p. 57), and that the usual reaction to a case of “past life” memories was indifference or detachment.

That could easily be our friend Keith Augustine, Brian. He doesn't debunk anything, he's nit picking and making generalisations which have been dealt with. (Pleasant guy, though, very polite) 

One example. He says that these stories come from families that already believe in reincarnation. Whilst there are a huge number of cases (Stevenson collected them) like that, we also have plenty of cases from the west. Secondly, many of these stories emerge at very young ages as one would expect (not 10-15 years later as he says) and those are well documented. 

What I would say to you Brian and those who don't like the idea of reincarnation (I don't particularly) is don't worry about it. There is nothing any of us can do about what is so and what is not, and presumably if we do come back (which I personally know to be the case, damn blast it) we will all be okay with it. And if we don't, well you can stay in paradise forever and I don't mean that sarcastically (wouldn't we all like that).

Hmm, Keith Augustine isn't polite to me. Although, I did publish a negative review of his book on my blog that incensed him.

Regarding reincarnation. I'd like to point out here that just because reincarnation might happen, that needn't entail that everyone reincarnates. It might be that some people only have one life on earth. Indeed, it might be that some souls don't have any lives on earth, but simply subsist forevermore in the beforelife/afterlife realm or one of those realms. And some people might reincarnate much more frequently than others.

What precipitates the reincarnation process?  One very plausible possibility is that it is our underlying expectations, beliefs, yearnings and so on. A belief and desire to reincarnation might well ensure that we quickly reincarnate.  Contrariwise,  an antipathy towards reincarnation and a disbelief in it will forestall the process.