Lemuria and Atlantis

Thanks for that post Kam.

Regarding this bit, though:


On the one hand that makes sense to me. On the other hand, it seems clear to me listening to some channelers that the guide or ascended master who is allegedly communicating with them is referencing these specific places, with even more distinct locations within them. A lot of detailed information is generated. I'm not saying that means it's true; my point is more that in these cases it seems something is happening other than "the channeler is filtering the information and adding names". I don't doubt, however, that your theory may help explain what happens in some or many cases; I'm still left wondering what's going on in those cases where I think something else is at play. (Whether that's the channeler working out of his own imagination unconsciously for the whole thing, which I find puzzling and hard to explain to myself how that could happen; or there is an entity relating these things, whether they are true or not, on this plane or another, or in parallel realities, etc. etc.)

I agree and that's why I had trouble trying to make sense of it myself.

All I can say is that the information that comes through is sometimes unreliable. The Seth material is a prime example of this. I remember wading through the so-called "Christ Material" which has historical details about Jesus/Christ (I put the slash in there deliberately) dispersed over several books. Some of that material not only contradicts known historical accounts but also contradicts itself! So I console myself with the excuse that the medium/channel can distort the material upon delivery. Yet that's not an entirely satisfying explanation as you rightly point out. 

Another possible explanation is that the entity is trying to relay material which is less than objective to start with. Seth was particularly at pains to emphasise that all events are plastic with infinite variations possible. So then we get into possible alternate timelines, historical probabilities, parallel realities, etc. Makes my brain hurt and I doubt that I will ever, in this life at least, understand the intricacies of a history which is subject to mass-consciousness intervention. Can we re-write our past? That's an interesting - though inevitably fruitless - discussion in itself.

Oh, by the way, the Jesus/Christ distinction is to do with the Christ consciousness not being restricted to the individual personality known as Jesus. According to the Seth material, the Chris consciousness manifested in John the Baptist, Jesus and (if memory serves me correctly) Saul/Paul and will incarnate again during this century.

[Ninshub]

Another possible explanation is that the entity is trying to relay material which is less than objective to start with. Seth was particularly at pains to emphasise that all events are plastic with infinite variations possible. So then we get into possible alternate timelines, historical probabilities, parallel realities, etc. Makes my brain hurt and I doubt that I will ever, in this life at least, understand the intricacies of a history which is subject to mass-consciousness intervention. Can we re-write our past? That's an interesting - though inevitably fruitless - discussion in itself.

Hurts my brain (or rather mind) as well too, but what you wrote here sometimes seems to me like the only way to potentially make sense of all this.

Btw here's an example of someone I had in mind when bringing up this topic, whose approach, hearing him interviewed, at the outset seems serious and credible (although I am not making any sort of claim about him).




But just put down "lemuria channel", for example, in youtube and you'll have no problem finding a lot of other examples.

I have no doubt, however, that for some or many of them Atlantis and Lemuria (both brought up and popularized by Cayce, although the theosophists before that brought up at least Atlantis) has just become a cultural "thing"/belief.

It is something that has troubled me in the past. 

Firstly, regarding channels. I tend to regard their information as being delivered through the lens of the channel her/himself. By that I mean that if they are receiving information about past civilisations they might unconsciously make the association with Atlantis, whether or not a place of that name or general description actually existed in our history. What I do find pretty convincing, however, is the idea that civilisations before our own recorded history came and went.  

There is a lot of speculation and some of it is extreme (I don't see the need for aliens, for example) but I am not discounting the possibility that some previous civilisations were perhaps even more advanced than we are although maybe in different ways. I can imagine a civilisation developing around radically different technology, probably among a much smaller human population and without the need for a petro-chemical fuelled industrialisation. I remember a Seth dialogue about one such earlier advanced civilisation which thrived in below-ground networks. Some of the more recent archaeological finds in Turkey, etc., seem to suggest such a possibility.

It is so easy to dismiss all alternative archaeology, mythology, sacred texts, legends and symbolism as nonsense but how often do we witness that same kind of generalisation when it comes to Psi research? There are fake mediums, crazy New Age fads and a bunch of YouTube and Facebook nut cases nobody here would want to be associated with yet a large percentage of the population out there would put this forum in that very same category.

I think that given all the failed efforts by parapsychology-motivated researchers and entrepreneurs hoping to find ways to harness psi and esp effects to actually make a practical profit and become driving sources in our modern economy, there probably are no possible occult or psionic modes or ways of building a radically different economy and technology that could have been utilized and developed by your Atlanteans and Lemurians as early alternatives to our fossil-fuel and metals -driven high technology. There probably are no shortcuts around the necessity of following our historical step-by-step progression of developments (initially horse and human power, then steam, followed by evolutionary development of electrical, gasoline/oil energy powered technology) in learning how to exploit and control nature to build a technology able to (at least in the relatively short term) benefit Mankind with advanced medicine and other technologies.

Therefore the absence of evidence in the oil and metals deposits of any early prehistoric exploitation is almost certainly evidence of the absence of very early prehistoric advanced civilizations, and there almost certainly simply were no such early civilizations using some sort of hypothesized occult technologies not dependent on oil and metals. If they existed they must have been at the stone age level of development technologically, contrary to most of the channelings.

The psychological mechanism operating in most of the channelers of Atlantean and Lemurian stories and the like is in my opinion probably the subconscious absorption and subsequent influence through self-suggestion of contemporary ideas of such prehistoric civilizations promulgated in various books and other publications (such as happened via popular books in the '20s and '30s). A form of spreading of underlying contemporary cultural ideas into the population via subconscious confabulation processes.

On the subject of channelling - which is really what this thread is about. I seem to go through phases or waves of digging into that field for a while, then leaving it and returning a few years later. At the moment I guess I'm in one of my in-between phases as I'm not really focussing on it at present.

The conclusion I reached during my last forage in that area is that the importance - for me - is in how much it helps me to be uplifted and to find or rediscover positive spiritual aspects of my life. There were one or two thought-provoking presentations I came across which were useful not necessarily because they were 'true' but because it gave me a different perspective and way of looking at or considering things. In the end I tend to drift away because as time goes on I understand the channeller is just someone like myself, no more, no less and even though I don't have the particular abilities they claim, I have some of my own. So then I found I was more self-reliant and trusting my own intuitions, which led to a reduced focus on trying to figure out what someone else was doing or saying.

As for the Lemuria and Atlantis area, maybe it is like one of Jung's archetypes, something which resonates (to a greater or lesser extent) with people. That in itself neither confirms nor denies any particular substance behind it but it does perhaps explain why the topic re-emerges rather than just fading away.

I think that given all the failed efforts by parapsychology-motivated researchers and entrepreneurs hoping to find ways to harness psi and esp effects to actually make a practical profit and become driving sources in our modern economy, there probably are no possible occult or psionic modes or ways of building a radically different economy and technology that could have been utilized and developed by your Atlanteans and Lemurians as early alternatives to our fossil-fuel and metals -driven high technology. There probably are no shortcuts around the necessity of following our historical step-by-step progression of developments (initially horse and human power, then steam, followed by evolutionary development of electrical, gasoline/oil energy powered technology) in learning how to exploit and control nature to build a technology able to (at least in the relatively short term) benefit Mankind with advanced medicine and other technologies.

Therefore the absence of evidence in the oil and metals deposits of any early prehistoric exploitation is almost certainly evidence of the absence of very early prehistoric advanced civilizations, and there almost certainly simply were no such early civilizations using some sort of hypothesized occult technologies not dependent on oil and metals. If they existed they must have been at the stone age level of development technologically, contrary to most of the channelings.

The psychological mechanism operating in most of the channelers of Atlantean and Lemurian stories and the like is in my opinion probably the subconscious absorption and subsequent influence through self-suggestion of contemporary ideas of such prehistoric civilizations promulgated in various books and other publications (such as happened via popular books in the '20s and '30s). A form of spreading of underlying contemporary cultural ideas into the population via subconscious confabulation processes.

Wow, a lot of "probably" and "almost certainly" in there but little by way of lifting these assertions beyond the level of personal opinion although I have no doubt that many modern (I'll call them "orthodox") archaeologists would agree with you and that your view mirrors theirs. Odd that you are not so eager to line up with the current academic/scientific orthodoxy when it comes to evolution though.

I disagree though because I think that the human mind is an infinitely creative resource (being an aspect of the universal creative mind) so I would never limit its creativity by saying things just had to develop as our written history records. We have no recorded history beyond a few thousand years ago yet we know that humans (in our modern, familiar form) have existed for at least 200,000 years. Myths, traditions, cultural stories and other sources point to a kind of human knowing that we seem to have lost along the road to industrialisation. I am certainly not so eager to dismiss those traditions so lightly.

To return to the subject of channelled information, though, I view that as just another resource. I have to ask myself whether it flies in the face of what we can know for certain, whether there is evidence suggestive of such possibilities and whether we can have absolute trust in the accuracy of our current formal research. Mostly I do not have the background education to address those questions so I prefer to view such speculation as interesting diversions which are occasionally quite exciting developments if they were to make it into the mainstream. As we all know, however, the mainstream is extremely resistant to deviations from the well trodden track (evolutionary science again being a prime example).

For interest:

Could an Industrial Prehuman Civilization Have Existed on Earth before Ours?

and

Was There a Civilization on Earth Before Humans? - A look at the available evidence

There isn't any credible archaeological evidence for such prehistoric civilizations, and if they existed and were technological and scientific they would have already depleted the world's oil and metals deposits, which we would certainly have noticed.

Except if you take this theory seriously:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deep-Hot-Biosph...0387952535

There does seem to be a lot of evidence in favour of the idea that oil is part of the makeup of the earth - not a 'fossil' residue of ancient plants.

David

Except if you take this theory seriously:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deep-Hot-Biosph...0387952535

There does seem to be a lot of evidence in favour of the idea that oil is part of the makeup of the earth - not a 'fossil' residue of ancient plants.

David

The Op for this thread was Atlantis and Lemuria. These alleged very ancient civilizations supposedly existed before history as we know it but well within the lifespan of humans on Earth (at the most 150,000 years or so). They are claimed to have been very ancient but human civilizations in the relatively near past in geological terms.

Gold's theory might possibly explain the disappearance of any evidence of oil depletion due to a non-human civilization of say intelligent dinosaurs related to velociraptor for instance, during the Cretaceous period over 65 million years ago. The slow processes he hypothesized would presumably have replenished the oil deposits given all that time. But these slow processes would not erase the depletion of the oil reserves a mere 50,000 years or so in the past. 

Also, Gold's theory doesn't account for the evident erasure of the expected prehistoric depletion of key metal deposits like nickel, chromium, tungsten, and so on. Fifty thousand years or so are no where near long enough for geological processes to have erased all the prehistoric mine shafts and all the mine hardware left in the ground.  To say nothing of common but very impervious to deterioration manufactured objects like ceramic toilets.

The Op for this thread was Atlantis and Lemuria. These alleged very ancient civilizations supposedly existed before history as we know it but well within the lifespan of humans on Earth (at the most 150,000 years or so). They are claimed to have been very ancient but human civilizations in the relatively near past in geological terms.

Gold's theory might possibly explain the disappearance of any evidence of oil depletion due to a non-human civilization of say intelligent dinosaurs related to velociraptor for instance, during the Cretaceous period over 65 million years ago. The slow processes he hypothesized would presumably have replenished the oil deposits given all that time. But these slow processes would not erase the depletion of the oil reserves a mere 50,000 years or so in the past. 

Also, Gold's theory doesn't account for the evident erasure of the expected prehistoric depletion of key metal deposits like nickel, chromium, tungsten, and so on. Fifty thousand years or so are no where near long enough for geological processes to have erased all the prehistoric mine shafts and all the mine hardware left in the ground.  To say nothing of common but very impervious to deterioration manufactured objects like ceramic toilets.

Well that might be true, but Gold reckons that many oilfields already show evidence of refilling.

Looking for mine shafts or the remains of toiles would be a pretty expensive operation since everything is underwater, so I doubt there is much evidence either way.

I'm not nailing my colours to the mast on this because geology is definitely not my thing, but I have become very cautious about the ways of modern sciensts. It is entirely possible that some evidence has turned up but never been published. If it doesn't fit the narrative, why publish it?

David

Well that might be true, but Gold reckons that many oilfields already show evidence of refilling.

Looking for mine shafts or the remains of toiles would be a pretty expensive operation since everything is underwater, so I doubt there is much evidence either way.

I'm not nailing my colours to the mast on this because geology is definitely not my thing, but I have become very cautious about the ways of modern sciensts. It is entirely possible that some evidence has turned up but never been published. If it doesn't fit the narrative, why publish it?

David

Any ancient technological energy-using civilization would have eventually explored and spread all over the world and not been just located where they originated in a now-destroyed and submerged lost continent. And by now our search for and exploitation of metals deposits would have revealed some sort of surviving evidence like ancient mine tunnels and equipment, to say nothing of common but relatively impervious objects like ceramic toilets.