Is the human self nonexistent?

[Ninshub]

I'm rereading Robert Monroe's first book (2nd reread, so 3rd read) and there's a moment early enough that made me think of how those infant NDEs I related earlier could be interpreted as separate streams.

This is very early on (1958) in his OBE experiments, and this one evidential OBE from his journal he later shared with this group of professionals. Dr. Bradshaw was the psychologist friend who was one of the people her first talked to about what was happening to him and the psychologist encouraged him to continue.

So in this OBE he travels to Bradshaw's house, when the latter is supposed to be in bed, and instead he finds him and his wife walking outside. There's a lot of detail here (clothes they were wearing, etc.) that afterward Monroe (later that same day/night) was able to verify with Bradshaw had all happened in conformity with what he observed during the OBE. Now back to the OBE itself, Monroe writes:


Now when Monroe told Bradshaw, Bradshaw didn't experience Monroe's presence, so it indicates potentially that another stream of consciousness (soul?) in Bradshaw communicated with Monroe while Bradshaw's mind was actually focused on other things.

Before watching the interview with Nancy Rhines, I watched this BATGAP interview with William Peters from early this year, who had a few NDEs, then experienced Shared NDEs through hospice work, which got him into researching SDEs and he published a book on the topic.

As he's describing his early hospice work experience in San Francisco, he recounts this experience which made me think of this "dual awareness" that I came across in the Monroe book.

He's reading to Ron, who is in bed and who has largely been unresponsive for some weeks, and at one point William pops out of his own consciousness, while his reading to Ron is still going on (a kind of "parallel universe" is how he labels it), observing the process, and is able at the same time to see Ron localized outside the body and very much aware and communicating with him.

at 43:30 or so.



At Heaven's Door is the name of the book.

nbtruthman Wrote:  [url=https://psiencequest.net/forums/thread-is-the-human-self-nonexistent?pid=49314#pid49314][/url]The big question is whether this soul perspective is morally or ethically or otherwise humanly justified given that it is the human that does the suffering, that has to climb into the trenches and get shot up and mutilated, etc., so to speak.

Is a body without a soul, human, though? If we are the soul (and I accept that personally) then the many bodies we've occupied and will occupy are little more than complex machines that we take custody of and operate for a period of time. Of course we are bound together with the body (or our bodies)  and become completely accustomed to recognising it as us, me. 

But when the soul/consciousness exits the body, it often pities it, as nbtruthman is alluding to above, but there appears to be little real anxiety for it's welfare, ultimately. We've all read the accounts, this is more or less what they say.

Just to add, I don't think we should live our lives thinking that we are not the body and more to the point, we can't live like that. When the journey is coming to an end, surely only then can we start to disregard it. Hope that doesn't sound patronising, apologies if it does.

[Ninshub]

I can't give you a "Like", tim, , because even though I very much agree with your first two paragraphs, I disagree with the third. I don't see the spiritual arguments for thinking we should live this life thinking we are the body (I am not saying to disregard we incarnate one or that it doesn't exist, at least in a virtual reality way). I can think of many reasons for viewing it the opposite way, though I'm probably not too inclined to get into a heavy discussion about that here.

I don't hear NDErs either coming back and saying we should view it this way (I am my body). The call to awakening seems to be more to realize we are spiritual beings, inhabiting bodies but clearly not them.

I disagree with the third. I don't see the spiritual arguments for thinking we should live this life thinking we are the body

Hey, no worries, Ian ! My argument was actually more of a practical one. If we were to live as though the body didn't matter,  as if nothing matters (literally) surely there are numerous potential problems with that. I'll list them tomorrow but I'm sure at least Paul would agree with me (if he was here)

Edit : and Brian.

[Ninshub]

Yeah the nuance there is important for me. I can live knowing I'm not the body (the locus of identification) - I can't live thinking the body doesn't matter or it will invite all sorts of problems and miseries!

I believe strongly that the arguments of the ID crowd (Intelligent Design) are sound in that they rule out evolution by natural selection. The important thing is that you can read their arguments without being a Christian.

This leaves all sorts of explanations for life, from the whole incredible genetic mechanism being created by a God of some sort, through to a group of human souls getting together to design a physical construction that souls can then inhabit. A lot of people think only superminds could design life, but I'm not so sure - for example humans can achieve an awful lot if they can effectively harness the power of computers (or the equivalent) to their thought processes. They can also, of course, produce mountains of drivel if not used with enough thought.

David

Is a body without a soul, human, though? If we are the soul (and I accept that personally) then the many bodies we've occupied and will occupy are little more than complex machines that we take custody of and operate for a period of time. Of course we are bound together with the body (or our bodies)  and become completely accustomed to recognising it as us, me. 

But when the soul/consciousness exits the body, it often pities it, as nbtruthman is alluding to above, but there appears to be little real anxiety for it's welfare, ultimately. We've all read the accounts, this is more or less what they say.

Just to add, I don't think we should live our lives thinking that we are not the body and more to the point, we can't live like that. When the journey is coming to an end, surely only then can we start to disregard it. Hope that doesn't sound patronising, apologies if it does.

If we literally are the soul, then it seems completely inexplicable how we can make such abysmally bad choices for the next life, abysmally bad for our human characters I mean. It's as simple as that. It's not like we're actors on the stage of Earth life, and are merely very convincingly pretending to be the poor wretch stretched out on the rack and being literally pulled apart. No, while on stage we actually believe ourselves to be the character, and fully and intensely feel what the characters are undergoing. And we chose this??? 

If some super high tech virtual reality video simulation system were invented that in such a way as this totally immersed the user in his synthetic AI generated experience (including realistic nerve stimulations along with everything else like sight and sound and smell and sense of touch), do you think anyone setting up their simulation run would decide to be the simulated character who breaks his leg and has to undergo emergency surgery without anesthetic? I don't think so, not even if the user knew that when in the simulation he would not remember his real life. 

There is some analogy with the use of anesthetics - nobody would undergo surgery if they knew that the only anesthetic used would be a hypnotic agent that prevented them from having any memory of the surgery, but there was no actual painkilling agent to prevent pain during the procedure. Nobody in their right mind would consent to such a thing, because they would know that they would still be themselves and conscious during the actual cutting and cleaning and drilling and clamping and so on. Such a terrible thing actually happens, thankfully very rarely, in the phenomenon called anesthetic awareness, where the patient doesn't get the right mix of anesthetic agents and though paralyzed, is still awake and aware and can feel, during the surgery.

If some super high tech virtual reality video simulation system were invented that in such a way as this totally immersed the user in his synthetic AI generated experience (including realistic nerve stimulations along with everything else like sight and sound and smell and sense of touch), do you think anyone setting up their simulation run would decide to be the simulated character who breaks his leg and has to undergo emergency surgery without anesthetic? I don't think so, not even if the user knew that when in the simulation he would not remember his real life.

What if you live forever and across the eons the varied lives of ease had already been tried?

I do think that this world hardly looks like the kind of place that serves as a school for spirits to grow, but it could be the kind of place immortals suffering from deep ennui might create...

[Ninshub]

If we literally are the soul, then it seems completely inexplicable how we can make such abysmally bad choices for the next life, abysmally bad for our human characters I mean.

This assumes the soul when incarnating makes choices for the sake of the human character, rather than itself. Whether one finds the sources of information valid or not, I never encounter any such experiencer source that says this is the case.

What if you live forever and across the eons the varied lives of ease had already been tried?

I do think that this world hardly looks like the kind of place that serves as a school for spirits to grow, but it could be the kind of place immortals suffering from deep ennui might create...

Maybe, but not if these immortals embodied anything like the "hard wired" damage = pain = suffering circuit in their basic sentient beings. They would know better.