Intelligent design

Basically the idea is that you reincarnate into higher or lower castes based on virtuous actions in a previous life. Think of the scam of serfdom in Europe supported by certain religious authorities.

I don't think this ancient prejudice/injustice is directly influencing people who think we plan out our lives before we are born...but it seems to me the same attempt to appeal to the supernatural to explain away the suffering of the world is there...

Well I prefer doubt on this issue, because I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from known human behaviour - seeking out pain, suffering and danger in ways that seem extraordinary to most of us.

Remember, if reincarnation is real, a life wrecked in some awful way is just part of a much larger encounter with the physical domain.

I think the whole phenomenon of reincarnation requires far more explanation before it is safe to let opinions harden one way or the other.

David

Well I prefer doubt on this issue, because I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from known human behaviour - seeking out pain, suffering and danger in ways that seem extraordinary to most of us.

Remember, if reincarnation is real, a life wrecked in some awful way is just part of a much larger encounter with the physical domain.

I think the whole phenomenon of reincarnation requires far more explanation before it is safe to let opinions harden one way or the other.

David

It just seems like a convenient belief to me that perfectly fits with a lot of New Age [religious] beliefs that allow a person to navel gaze rather than make the world a better place, though there are admittedly enough in-between lives and NDEs that seem to indicate that some people do plan some aspect of their lives...

But then, of course, there are NDEs that say there are Hells and people seem to go there for different reasons...

It just seems like a convenient belief to me that perfectly fits with a lot of New Age [religious] beliefs that allow a person to navel gaze rather than make the world a better place, though there are admittedly enough in-between lives and NDEs that seem to indicate that some people do plan some aspect of their lives...

But then, of course, there are NDEs that say there are Hells and people seem to go there for different reasons...

Well the reincarnation story is that we reincarnate here repeatedly to experience or learn to interact with other people. The 'benefit' is supposed to be for the 'higher self' who ends up being able to compare inflicting terrible treatment and the experience of being on the receiving end.

Unless you deny the idea of reincarnation completely, something of this sort must be going on.

I'm not pushing this too hard, but it has to be thought about. There are meant right now planning to join the war in Ukraine - not because they believe in the cause, or even I suspect because they will be paid particularly well, but because they want the thrill.

David

Well the reincarnation story is that we reincarnate here repeatedly to experience or learn to interact with other people. The 'benefit' is supposed to be for the 'higher self' who ends up being able to compare inflicting terrible treatment and the experience of being on the receiving end.

Unless you deny the idea of reincarnation completely, something of this sort must be going on.

Reincarnation happens. That seems to be all the evidence shows. There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it, save that in some cases people apparently have been able to reincarnate into a particular family by choice. Also the cases of Japanese soldiers reincarnating as children in places where Japanese occupation was despised suggests geographical location plays a part sometimes.

What I deny is the extraneous projected explanations onto the Survival evidence that suggest the afterlife explains away the evil and suffering of this world.

Reincarnation happens. That seems to be all the evidence shows.

That's pretty much my position. I've been pondering this subject since about 1980 when I began to take it very seriously. Despite years of considering and looking at lots of evidence, I didn't reach any firm conclusion on the reasons why it happens.

There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to it, save that in some cases people apparently have been able to reincarnate into a particular family by choice. Also the cases of Japanese soldiers reincarnating as children in places where Japanese occupation was despised suggests geographical location plays a part sometimes.

What I deny is the extraneous projected explanations onto the Survival evidence that suggest the afterlife explains away the evil and suffering of this world.

Those are useful thoughts.

That's pretty much my position. I've been pondering this subject since about 1980 when I began to take it very seriously. Despite years of considering and looking at lots of evidence, I didn't reach any firm conclusion on the reasons why it happens.


Those are useful thoughts.

Yeah I think it would be great if all the suffering of this world had some deep meaning *and* it turned out we chose it all...but not only I am unable see how those two hopes can be reconciled...I also don't really see this in the evidence.

In some ways I think this is better because it divorces Survival from any clear belief system or even agenda beyond the conclusion that this life is only part of what seems to be a very long journey - what Eric Weiss aptly calls the Longest Journey...

That's pretty much my position. I've been pondering this subject since about 1980 when I began to take it very seriously. Despite years of considering and looking at lots of evidence, I didn't reach any firm conclusion on the reasons why it happens.

Do you accept any of the evidence for people remembering their periods between lives?

I am interested as to how much common ground we share here.

David

Reincarnation happens. That seems to be all the evidence shows.

As long as one continuously refuses to look at the counter evidence, one might reach this conclusion.  There are other psi interpretations such as, for example, Akashic records.  These people, if they are not just making up stories or imagining things, might be experiencing somebody else's life.  I don't buy the wound/birthmark idea.  The birthmark could easily give rise to the belief in a previous wound.

Do you accept any of the evidence for people remembering their periods between lives?

I am interested as to how much common ground we share here.

David

Yes, I think there is such evidence.

Though I don't follow say just the evidence supplied by a single individual - even when I may like what they have to say - to me it is important to listen to multiple voices.

This is one reason why I like the NDERF and OBERF websites - there it is possible to find tens, hundreds of voices. By listening to many, some ideas emerge - though it may have contradictions and multiple facets at times.

As long as one continuously refuses to look at the counter evidence, one might reach this conclusion.  There are other psi interpretations such as, for example, Akashic records.  These people, if they are not just making up stories or imagining things, might be experiencing somebody else's life.  I don't buy the wound/birthmark idea.  The birthmark could easily give rise to the belief in a previous wound.

To me it's important to distinguish the story or narrative, which is a kind of separate thing in the way that a novel or a film are separate from ourselves. To distinguish them from the innermost state of our being, the things which we feel deep inside, despite the lack of any narrative or explanation.

This issue, the central role of who we are, this is at the heart of the mystery. For me it became a reason to seriously consider past-lives as the only plausible explanation, even if not having any tale to tell.