Free will re-redux

I offer as evidence, old Country Wisdom: "Its not the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog."

In sports the "want to", guts or will power of players is always gauged as a contribution.  

These are valid and interesting examples.

I tend to think sometimes of kind of reverse direction choices. For example, the urge to fight and to win is often a strong influence, promoting a type of behaviour. What I have in mind is to feel those strong, perhaps overwhelming urges, and to choose to walk away. This may (in my opinion) take a more definite act of will since it may go against the grain.

I don't see why each selection option is independent. Note that your definition of FD simply assumes freedom.

How does will change the probability in the environs?

~~ Paul

The selection options would not be independent and could have large amounts of mutual information.  What I was hoping to define that each had a separate outcome.  Hence , each outcome would be a degree of freedom, from a finite group of options.

How is the right and toughest question.  Watch me duck and weave for time, on that one.

I would be looking for agreement that W, expressed and reflected as to outcomes, is measurable.  Above normal amounts of will is measured as increased positive outcomes.  (sports advanced stats)  

Objectively - it seems to be active in making a difference.  It can be identified and defined.

These are valid and interesting examples.

I tend to think sometimes of kind of reverse direction choices. For example, the urge to fight and to win is often a strong influence, promoting a type of behaviour. What I have in mind is to feel those strong, perhaps overwhelming urges, and to choose to walk away. This may (in my opinion) take a more definite act of will since it may go against the grain.

Preventing disorder is possibly more prevalent.  Behavioral disorders generate huge doses of stats on how to overcome addiction, ocd, etc.. where folks can rewire their brains, by taking some steps to command their responses.

https://jeffreymschwartz.com/

The selection options would not be independent and could have large amounts of mutual information.  What I was hoping to define that each had a separate outcome.  Hence , each outcome would be a degree of freedom, from a finite group of options.

Yes, I think it's fair to say they have separate outcomes. Otherwise, two with the same outcome are the same option.

How is the right and toughest question.  Watch me duck and weave for time, on that one.

I would be looking for agreement that W, expressed and reflected as to outcomes, is measurable.  Above normal amounts of will is measured as increased positive outcomes.  (sports advanced stats)  

Objectively - it seems to be active in making a difference.  It can be identified and defined.

Fair enough. It would be cool to measure W, but the measurement is not an explanation of the "how."

I'm not sure how you would measure a "positive outcome," nor am I sure why positives imply above-normal amounts.

~~ Paul

Oh, sorry, my fault. I said:

"Okay, so now I can ask two questions: Please describe how the computer abstraction works, and please describe how any particular implementation works. I would be happy to get an overview of an answer to either of these questions as they pertain to a free decision."

I didn't mean how the answers concerning computers pertain to a free decisions. I meant how the questions of abstraction and implementation pertain to free decisions. The antecedent of "they" is "questions," not "answer."

Crappy writing on my part.

~~ Paul

I have to admit I am just really confused by the whole mentioning of computers from the beginning. Why do computers matter at all? There is a lot of "how" information regarding origami, cooking, building a house, etc. None of it seems relevant to me, and so the same with computers?

I guess I don't understand the relevance of this part ->

In the abstract, how does a free decision progress from multiple choices to the final choice?

How does my brain/mind actually make a free decision?

Note, again, that I can give detailed answers to both of these questions about a computer.

Isn't this saying that something is analogous between computers and decision making?

Why I asked for a description of how Anne answers Bob.

Okay, so now I can ask two questions: Please describe how the computer abstraction works, and please describe how any particular implementation works. I would be happy to get an overview of an answer to either of these questions as they pertain to a free decision.

In the abstract, how does a free decision progress from multiple choices to the final choice?

How does my brain/mind actually make a free decision?

Note, again, that I can give detailed answers to both of these questions about a computer.

~~ Paul

I hope you at least understand that the idea of a computer "making decisions" or "choices" is merely a metaphor based on conscious entities making decisions and choices?

It is an analogy based on the appearance of making decisions and choices, when, at the end of the day, computers actually do neither.

The hardware is merely ridiculously complicated and complex enough to take an input, binary code, keyboard, mouse, and based on those inputs, "choose" multiple hardware-defined paths that modify what it will do, again constrained to what the hardware's capabilities are.

Youtuber Ben Eater's videos on computers are really quite fascinating, as they break down the complexity into something vaguely comprehendable to the layman.

For example:

Building an 8-bit breadboard computer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyznrdDS...HU&index=1

Keyboard interface hardware

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1SB9Ry8_Jg

A Youtube preview plugin might be a nice-to-have...

[Laird]

A Youtube preview plugin might be a nice-to-have...

My Link Tools plugin (originally announced on PQ as New "duplicate link warner" plugin, and much further developed since then) supports link previews, and its preview action for a link to a YouTube video is to auto-embed the linked-to YouTube video. I haven't enabled that feature on our forum though, mostly because I figure that if folks wanted to embed a YT video, they can already do it via MyCode via the editor.

Perhaps I could develop an alternative YT vid previewer which simply shows the cover image of the video along with its title and author, etc.

I have to admit I am just really confused by the whole mentioning of computers from the beginning. Why do computers matter at all? There is a lot of "how" information regarding origami, cooking, building a house, etc. None of it seems relevant to me, and so the same with computers?

Computers came up only as an example of something complicated for which we have copious "how" information. People kept asking "how" a supposedly deterministic thing works when I would ask "how" a free decision works.

I guess I don't understand the relevance of this part ->

"In the abstract, how does a free decision progress from multiple choices to the final choice?

How does my brain/mind actually make a free decision?

Note, again, that I can give detailed answers to both of these questions about a computer."

Isn't this saying that something is analogous between computers and decision making?

I asked those two question in response to Typoz' distinction between abstract concept and implementation. I thought perhaps it would be possible to describe a free decision in the abstract even if the "implementation" in the human mind was too difficult.

So, in summary, computers are relevant only as an example of a complicated process that can be described in detail.

~~ Paul

I hope you at least understand that the idea of a computer "making decisions" or "choices" is merely a metaphor based on conscious entities making decisions and choices?

It is an analogy based on the appearance of making decisions and choices, when, at the end of the day, computers actually do neither.

Sure, if you define a decision as requiring a conscious agent. But why would you?

decide
verb

transitive verb
1a : to make a final choice or judgment about
b : to select as a course of action
c : to infer on the basis of evidence : conclude
2 : to fix the course or outcome of (something)
3 : to induce to come to a choice

intransitive verb
: to make a choice or judgment

The hardware is merely ridiculously complicated and complex enough to take an input, binary code, keyboard, mouse, and based on those inputs, "choose" multiple hardware-defined paths that modify what it will do, again constrained to what the hardware's capabilities are.

Youtuber Ben Eater's videos on computers are really quite fascinating, as they break down the complexity into something vaguely comprehendable to the layman.

My degree is in computer science, so I have a good understanding of how they work.

~~ Paul

[Laird]

A Youtube preview plugin might be a nice-to-have...

My Link Tools plugin (originally announced on PQ as New "duplicate link warner" plugin, and much further developed since then) supports link previews, and its preview action for a link to a YouTube video is to auto-embed the linked-to YouTube video. I haven't enabled that feature on our forum though, mostly because I figure that if folks wanted to embed a YT video, they can already do it via MyCode via the editor.

Perhaps I could develop an alternative YT vid previewer which simply shows the cover image of the video along with its title and author, etc.

I've anyway decided to enable Link Tools' default auto-embedding of YT vids when links to them are posted, and I've also enabled Twitter previews seeing how fond the Woolley Stannoth is of posting bare Twitter links. Please check your post, Valmar, and see what you think.