Dualism or idealist monism as the best model for survival after death data

To me, the real point in this discussion is that physics isn't about producing ontologically correct models - and if that is true of physics, it is true of all the other sciences. If physics had not been pragmatic in this way, it would just have been irrelevant to modern life, which would still resemble the middle ages.

It is about devising models that are as simple as possible (or at least it should be about that) because all anyone can ever do is test an idea to see how well it fits the data and then look for simpler models that might be just as good. It is also prudent to consider a much simpler theory if it fits the data almost as well as the complicated one.

There is no real point in discussing models of consciousness that are more complicated than Dualism unless someone can suggest some experiment that might - at least in theory - fit more data than Dualism already fits.

A few people here seem to get this, the others think I'm missing the point.

As I have already pointed out, physics already has two major theories that it uses routinely, while ignoring the fact that they are mathematically inconsistent.

David

To me, the real point in this discussion is that physics isn't about producing ontologically correct models - and if that is true of physics, it is true of all the other sciences. If physics had not been pragmatic in this way, it would just have been irrelevant to modern life, which would still resemble the middle ages.

It is about devising models that are as simple as possible (or at least it should be about that) because all anyone can ever do is test an idea to see how well it fits the data and then look for simpler models that might be just as good. It is also prudent to consider a much simpler theory if it fits the data almost as well as the complicated one.

There is no real point in discussing models of consciousness that are more complicated than Dualism unless someone can suggest some experiment that might - at least in theory - fit more data than Dualism already fits.

A few people here seem to get this, the others think I'm missing the point.

As I have already pointed out, physics already has two major theories that it uses routinely, while ignoring the fact that they are mathematically inconsistent.

David

Dualism doesn't fit the data IMO, unless you take an isolated set of cases.

Take a "Deep Weird" event - see this thread - and it becomes hard to see how there are two distinct substances.

Admittedly there is some mundane normal world of the "Visible" and the weird oddities of the seeming "Invisible"...

Dualism doesn't fit the data IMO, unless you take an isolated set of cases.

Take a "Deep Weird" event - see this thread - and it becomes hard to see how there are two distinct substances.

Admittedly there is some mundane normal world of the "Visible" and the weird oddities of the seeming "Invisible"...

It just so happens that I am reading "Deep Weird" right now. That book is full of weird phenomena, particularly the discussion about synchronicity written by Sharon Rawlette.

However, I'm not sure they can't all be explained within Dualism - assuming that time in the other reality either doesn't exist, or is far more flexible than our time. Suppose that a mischievous entity paused Dan's timeline while it pushed (or caused Dan to push) the honey jar inside the tin, letting his time line run a bit from time to time so that he remembered the strange sense of the tin growing heavier - I think something of that sort would explain the end result.

Remember also that most phenomena can be explained (with caveats) inside materialism. Then there are another, much smaller, set of phenomena that require Dualism, and then there are a few phenomena that might or might not require anything more.

David

It just so happens that I am reading "Deep Weird" right now. That book is full of weird phenomena, particularly the discussion about synchronicity written by Sharon Rawlette.

However, I'm not sure they can't all be explained within Dualism - assuming that time in the other reality either doesn't exist, or is far more flexible than our time. Suppose that a mischievous entity paused Dan's timeline while it pushed (or caused Dan to push) the honey jar inside the tin, letting his time line run a bit from time to time so that he remembered the strange sense of the tin growing heavier - I think something of that sort would explain the end result.

Remember also that most phenomena can be explained (with caveats) inside materialism. Then there are another, much smaller, set of phenomena that require Dualism, and then there are a few phenomena that might or might not require anything more.

David

Materialism can't explain Consciousness nor Causation nor Logic/Maths, so hard for me to see what is explained inside that metaphysics.

I feel like an entity pausing time in itself is enough to challenge the idea that reality is two distinct substances. I get the idea of a functional Dualism, where for convenience we assume two substances...but then why not a functional Pluralism? Why not assume there are multiple substances at work?

I'm not necessarily saying Monism is the answer, nor do I know if it really makes a difference what paltry words we project onto the majesty of the Real...

"Belief in the existence of spirit-worlds parallel with the normal everyday world often form part of a particular culture’s wider cosmology. It is important to note that these spirit worlds are not conceived as necessarily distant, or abstract, places, rather they are understood as immanent and present, overlaying, and influencing, the lived landscape."

 -- Hunter, Jack. Spirits, Gods and Magic

Dualism doesn't fit the data IMO, unless you take an isolated set of cases.

Take a "Deep Weird" event - see this thread - and it becomes hard to see how there are two distinct substances.

Admittedly there is some mundane normal world of the "Visible" and the weird oddities of the seeming "Invisible"...

What about data quality and "checkability"? I would contend that the empirical data pointing to dualism is much more extensive and much more verified by investigators to have actually happened, than much of the "weird" stuff. The weird stuff usually can't be verified later by investigators (how about sightings of little green men or man-sized owls with pointed ears and red glowing eyes), whereas NDE OBEs, past life memories and birth defects, and mediumistic communications, can be and have been so verified.

What about data quality and "checkability"? I would contend that the empirical data pointing to dualism is much more extensive and much more verified by investigators to have actually happened, than much of the "weird" stuff. The weird stuff usually can't be verified later by investigators (how about sightings of little green men or man-sized owls with pointed ears and red glowing eyes), whereas NDE OBEs, past life memories and birth defects, and mediumistic communications, can be and have been so verified.

With NDEs/OBEs you have to explain the causal continuity of sensory input where people see their own body or other events in the "material" world.

Past life memories and birth defects seem to point to a continuity between memory/experience and physical bodily incarnation.

Medium communication, if we include ectoplasm, leaves something to be explained that seems neither "physical" nor "spiritual". Even without ectoplasm we have the PK data of rapping on tables and voices heard that are not coming from the medium in particular.

There was at least one video game I recall where if you die you end up a ghost that can wander around, walk through walls, and eventually even get resurrected. You operate in the same game world under different rules, and substances are arguably nothing but rules attached to certain experienced entities/stuff...

With NDEs/OBEs you have to explain the causal continuity of sensory input where people see their own body or other events in the "material" world.

Past life memories and birth defects seem to point to a continuity between memory/experience and physical bodily incarnation.

Medium communication, if we include ectoplasm, leaves something to be explained that seems neither "physical" nor "spiritual". Even without ectoplasm we have the PK data of rapping on tables and voices heard that are not coming from the medium in particular.

There was at least one video game I recall where if you die you end up a ghost that can wander around, walk through walls, and eventually even get resurrected. You operate in the same game world under different rules, and substances are arguably nothing but rules attached to certain experienced entities/stuff...

Certainly there must be at least one major allowed interaction between the two substances that otherwise are kept existentially separate. This of course is the necessity of the brain/mind interface to allow embodiment and manifestation of the spirit in the physical. 

As you point out, there is a sort of "causal continuity" exhibited in NDE OBE observations of the body and surroundings affairs going on. But at the same time, NDErs typically pass through solid material walls as if they were nothing, suggesting that the seeing the body type experiences are not photons being detected by the spirit, but occurrences of a higher form of sensing reality.

Mediumistic physical phenomena do exist but are rare. 

This all looks like mostly designed-in exceptions plus unintentional loopholes in the fabric of reality exploited by powerful psychics and other entities. It appears to me to be a system of a functional dualism where certain exceptions are made to meet overriding requirements imposed by the spiritual powers that be, with perhaps a few design errors thrown in.

[Ninshub]

This has probably been said before by other people in this thread and/or in others, but to me a strict dualism vs. monism debate doesn't make sense in the first place. I conceptualize as a possibility a "dualism" (matter/consciousness) within monism (consciousness), but where the matter is ultimately consciousness itself made to appear as a separate "substance", or "vibrating" at a certain "frequency" you could say (as the new agers, to use Brian's language, often say ). ("New agers" actually being actual experiencers relating their own experiences - whether mediums, NDErs or otherwise). 

So Consciousness creates physical beings (made of consciousness at a certain frequency), for example, within which higher or "purer" consciousness gets filtered and helps animate those physical beings.

I feel like an entity pausing time in itself is enough to challenge the idea that reality is two distinct substances. I get the idea of a functional Dualism, where for convenience we assume two substances...but then why not a functional Pluralism? Why not assume there are multiple substances at work?

The essence of science is to assume the minimum amount to explain the most. Galileo ignored birds, and insects, and pieces of fluff when he formulated his idea that everything fell at the same speed. That wasn't a mistake on his part, it was his genius.

If science accepted Dualism in the same way it happily embraces all kinds of theories that have exceptions a lot of progress would be made. The concept of Dualism is enormously valuable, for example to scientists studying phenomena around death. If you take away Dualism, you take away the significance of death.

At the same time those that want to deny all such phenomena rely on the argument that Dualism doesn't make sense because there has to be some interaction, while ignoring the fact that GR and QM are inconsistent - maybe some of them actually realise how invalid this argument is.

If Dualism was an accepted part of science, the phenomena reported in Deep Weird would attract a lot of attention. People would focus on the issue of whether or not an extension was or was not required. As it is they just sweep every and all reports of paranormal phenomena into the waste bin.

Science has been built on a series of theories that technically disprove the previous one.

For example, things only fall with the same acceleration if they start from the same height above the Earth. So in a technical sense Newton contradicted Galileo!

Science routinely uses theories that are known to be invalid in extreme cases.

If science accepted Dualism in the same way it happily embraces all kinds of theories that have exceptions a lot of progress would be made. The concept of Dualism is enormously valuable, for example to scientists studying phenomena around death. If you take away Dualism, you take away the significance of death.

At the same time those that want to deny all such phenomena rely on the argument that Dualism doesn't make sense because there has to be some interaction, while ignoring the fact that GR and QM are inconsistent - maybe some of them actually realise how invalid this argument is.

If Dualism was an accepted part of science, the phenomena reported in Deep Weird would attract a lot of attention. People would focus on the issue of whether or not an extension was or was not required. As it is they just sweep every and all reports of paranormal phenomena into the waste bin.

I don't see much excitement around Dualism - we see Scientific American and other publications willing to at least debate Idealism or Panpsychism, maybe also some kind of Information Realism or Simulation Hypothesis...

It seems to me Dualism is see as a long closed dead end by Science Academia?