Discovery Institute doesn’t believe in nuts&bolts aliens

Whatever forms of advanced physics knowledge can be had, they would still have to drive a solid object through space where classical physics rules.  Schrödinger's cat cannot be literally both dead and alive even though subatomic particles can be in a superposition.

I think one could argue you can enter into some other layer/level/dimension of reality where FTL speed is possible, then fall out of it again? Admittedly this is purely theoretical, maybe fantastical.

However, where I think this argument does hold is with how the craft defy the laws of physics on Earth. They have to subject to some aspect of classical physics to be detected, yet also have the ability to do things in defiance of classical physics.

It's possible, but surely it's rather odd that supposedly ET vehicles - which when seen sometimes are just spheres or discs with no discernible details we'd expect from interstellar craft - behave like Deep Weird phenomena...not to mention there would have to be at least two explanations, one for ETH and one for all the Deep Weird seemingly ETH stuff...

Given the lack of evidence for ETH, again it just seems more likely to me that there are no ET vehicles. I say this as someone who does think something weird is happening with UFOs/UAPs.

Been on a nice, long family vacation so apologies for resurrecting this thread.

For me, its a simple recognition of our own hubris about what we know (or more aptly what we think we know) at any point in time.  In almost every imaginable way our understanding of reality has evolved over time.  Its simply never remained static.  So asserting, with absolute certainty, that interstellar travel of objects is impossible based on our current science seems misguided and arrogant.  The most honest answer should be it appears to be impossible.

This doesn't make discussions conspiratorial, illogical, or otherwise unintelligent.  Skepticism should remain healthy, but an absolute rejection of the possibility based on man's (current) insight into reality has proven to be on incredibly weak footing historically.

That's exactly what Skeptiko was. Let's hope PQ never goes there!

The trouble is, there is nothing of substance that we discuss which does not have a taste of Skeptiko! It is absurd to talk about that website as being nothing but a weird perversion. Indeed we are in many ways a conceptualisation of Skeptiko with the benefit of hindsight!

Moreover, there are plenty of scientists - particular those in prominent positions who would dismiss PQ in its entirety.

I think Alex's increasing obsession with evil - even though he never professed to practice anything evil - lead him into trouble. I'd rather not explore that avenue further having seen what it may have done to Skeptiko and Alex Tsarkriis. Another contributory factor is that unlike here, he was the only one in charge.

Also as you know, Skeptiko mixed in topics outside science and spirituality, and I am now convinced that is not a good idea!

David

The trouble is, there is nothing of substance that we discuss which does not have a taste of Skeptiko! It is absurd to talk about that website as being nothing but a weird perversion. Indeed we are in many ways a conceptualisation of Skeptiko with the benefit of hindsight!

Moreover, there are plenty of scientists - particular those in prominent positions who would dismiss PQ in its entirety.

I think Alex's increasing obsession with evil - even though he never professed to practice anything evil - lead him into trouble. I'd rather not explore that avenue further having seen what it may have done to Skeptiko and Alex Tsarkriis. Another contributory factor is that unlike here, he was the only one in charge.

Also as you know, Skeptiko mixed in topics outside science and spirituality, and I am now convinced that is not a good idea!

David

Yep! ideologies and partisan politics can creep in. I think we need to be vigilant not go go there.

I think Alex's increasing obsession with evil - even though he never professed to practice anything evil - lead him into trouble. I'd rather not explore that avenue further having seen what it may have done to Skeptiko and Alex Tsarkriis. Another contributory factor is that unlike here, he was the only one in charge.

I don't know, as someone who Alex banned I made my peace with it and wish him well.

I think his consideration about Evil was (is?) part of his journey. As is his consideration of AI.

That said, I think avoiding too much politics is wise for PQ since this place isn't meant to be centered on one person's journey.

So asserting, with absolute certainty, that interstellar travel of objects is impossible based on our current science seems misguided and arrogant.  The most honest answer should be it appears to be impossible.

I don't think anybody is asserting with absolute certainty, I just think people are saying, "be realistic for goodness sake!"  We know nothing of the sort and therefore the subject shouldn't come up in any rational discussion.  Purple goblins might exist and might steal fairy dust but let's not discuss that because it is too far away from what we can actually know.

I don't think anybody is asserting with absolute certainty, I just think people are saying, "be realistic for goodness sake!"  We know nothing of the sort and therefore the subject shouldn't come up in any rational discussion.  Purple goblins might exist and might steal fairy dust but let's not discuss that because it is too far away from what we can actually know.

If science had started that way - never conceive of anything really new - it would never have advanced much. The ultimate absurdity is then to follow up by denying evidence for something new just because it relates to something new!

The properties of UFOs ARE weak evidence for faster than light travel. That evidence may ultimately turn out to be false, but in ordinary science, you start with weak evidence (think of the initial blurry evidence for the wave nature of light, and then of electrons, etc), and try to make it stronger. Science should use UFOs as a possible hint, not as an opportunity to scoff.

David

If science had started that way - never conceive of anything really new - it would never have advanced much. The ultimate absurdity is then to follow up by denying evidence for something new just because it relates to something new!

The properties of UFOs ARE weak evidence for faster than light travel. That evidence may ultimately turn out to be false, but in ordinary science, you start with weak evidence (think of the initial blurry evidence for the wave nature of light, and then of electrons, etc), and try to make it stronger. Science should use UFOs as a possible hint, not as an opportunity to scoff.

David

But scientists don't just fantasize, they need solid, known information with which to work.  To use arguments like, "you never know there might be something fantastical and inconceivable that we don't know about yet" is just fantasizing.  It might be true but at the moment it is too far out there to be considered as evidence in a debate.  That is the whole point about my purple goblins stealing fairy dust.  Purple goblins might steal fairy dust, you never know.  How would science progress without taking the concept seriously? Scientists - you must explore purple goblins and their relationship to fairy dust otherwise you are not real scientists!

If science had started that way - never conceive of anything really new - it would never have advanced much. The ultimate absurdity is then to follow up by denying evidence for something new just because it relates to something new!

The properties of UFOs ARE weak evidence for faster than light travel. That evidence may ultimately turn out to be false, but in ordinary science, you start with weak evidence (think of the initial blurry evidence for the wave nature of light, and then of electrons, etc), and try to make it stronger. Science should use UFOs as a possible hint, not as an opportunity to scoff.

David

My skeptical stance toward ETH is based on the fact that there are so many Weird cases that involve either creatures that seem to be alien or more directly craft that look like UFOs/UAPs but involve bizarre Weird events.

So yeah, if there were only the cases of witnessed vehicles and radar I would think the ETH as more plausible.

How much of a barrier should we regard what our current physics knowledge says regarding FTL travel? That I think it more difficult to judge, since we aren't in a position to fully evaluate what our future physics might say.

But scientists don't just fantasize, they need solid, known information with which to work.  To use arguments like, "you never know there might be something fantastical and inconceivable that we don't know about yet" is just fantasizing.  It might be true but at the moment it is too far out there to be considered as evidence in a debate.  That is the whole point about my purple goblins stealing fairy dust.  Purple goblins might steal fairy dust, you never know.  How would science progress without taking the concept seriously? Scientists - you must explore purple goblins and their relationship to fairy dust otherwise you are not real scientists!

Einstein clearly used a lot of imagination to come up with GR - yes scientists do fantasise, and then use whatever they come up with as the basis for calculations or experiments.

David