Contentious posts split out of The Telepathy Tapes

Read between the lines.

See my edit, I added some comments. 

[Laird]

I also think it would be fallacious to assume that autism of any kind or degree confers telepathy

It would be, but there's no mere assumption being made: this is simply what the data - including the self-reports of non-speaking autistic people - seem to be showing.

we need more research.

I don't think we "need" more research to be confident, based on what the Tapes have shown, that non-speaking autistic people are generally (universally?) telepathic, but it would definitely be welcome.

We don't want to commit ableism but also don't want to project powers onto a vulnerable group.

I'm not seeing any projection. The group is speaking for itself.

Dude, the whole show is about autism. Did you even listen to it at all?

Yes, but I tend to remember only the details that stick out in my mind, because it's a bit loud in my mind.

Oh yeah, and how do you know just from looking whether or not somebody is telepathic?

Unfortunately, with non-verbal Autistic individuals, they cannot really confirm nor deny.

Letting your emotions get in the way of the facts is not helpful, especially on a discussion forum.

Please do not project. I am merely rather annoyed when I perceive that vulnerable groups get used like this.

I perceive your replies to be rather emotional, I believe.

As for the facts ~ I do not think we know that Autism confers anything in terms of telepathy.

I do not deem my diagnosis to have had any impact, frankly, as I had no such capabilities for 22 whole years of my life.

However, I also think it would be fallacious to assume that autism of any kind or degree confers telepathy, which it seemed to me is the claim that I understood Valmar to be inferring from the Telepathy Tapes. This might be true, in some sense or another, but we need more research.

I will admit I am also wary of this claim in part due to the idea that such a vulnerable group has this ability universally could easily be exploited for others' gain. It might also draw away needed attention as to such a group's needs, by assuming they are actually "better off" than we should immediately assume.

As the Daily Grail article notes, there is a very delicate balance to be struck here. We don't want to commit ableism but also don't want to project powers onto a vulnerable group.

That is precisely what worries me here ~ that a very vulnerable group can be exploited for the gain of some other people.

Just because I am classed as "high-functioning" means nothing ~ I've seen other high-functioning Autistic people who are quite vulnerable emotionally.

It would be, but there's no mere assumption being made: this is simply what the data - including the self-reports of non-speaking autistic people - seem to be showing.

I don't think we "need" more research to be confident, based on what the Tapes have shown, that non-speaking autistic people are generally (universally?) telepathic, but it would definitely be welcome.

I'm not seeing any projection. The group is speaking for itself.

As you have said ~ they're non-speaking, so I am very wary that they are actually as telepathic as is being boldly proclaimed.

I have seen nothing to suggest that non-speaking Autistic people are any more telepathic than the general populace.

The group cannot speak for itself... as they require a lot of support from carers. So I think you can see that there is a potential power-imbalance here.

I guess I am mostly wary of just jumping on a bandwagon without careful observation, simply because telepathy is being perhaps wrongly concluded to be more common in Autistic people than in the general populace.

There is a danger that we misunderstand what we do not understand ~ Autism, that is. I don't think anyone really understands Autism, but given that many are, to put it bluntly, no offense intended, disabled mentally and / or physically, there can be a risk that we confer qualities that the individuals may not possess ~ or worse, we generalize qualities from individuals to the group, presuming that it has something to do with their Autism, rather than them simply being an individual.

There's a name for this phenomenon, I think, but I am tired enough that it's eluding me at the moment.

[Laird]

Yes, but I tend to remember only the details that stick out in my mind, because it's a bit loud in my mind.

It's pretty clear from your comments that very few relevant details have stuck with you - to whatever extent you actually have listened to any episodes of the podcast.

Unfortunately, with non-verbal Autistic individuals, they cannot really confirm nor deny.

In other words, you have no way of knowing whether the non-verbal autistic individuals you've (merely) "seen" are telepathic or not, yet you boldly claim that they're not anyway.

@Sci, is the bigotry a little clearer now?

Please do not project.

There's no projection here. Your offensive comments have angered me, but I'm not misrepresenting facts like you are.

vulnerable groups get used like this.

They're not being used, they're being truly seen - with their excited consent - for the first time. Apparently, you'd be content for their experience to be swept under the carpet and denied.

I do not deem my diagnosis to have had any impact

I sincerely doubt that you've been diagnosed with apraxia, so that's an irrelevant comment.

In other words, you have no way of knowing whether the non-verbal autistic individuals you've (merely) "seen" are telepathic or not, yet you boldly claim that they're not anyway.

@Sci, is the bigotry a little clearer now?

I don't think the accusation of bigotry is warranted?

It seems to me @Valmar 's concern is the exploitation of the vulnerable, not that these persons' disability makes them incapable of producing telepathy.

No one who has studied Psi could say we have any idea of what it takes, as a maxim, to manifest the ability. There seem to be substances and practices that can confer some Psi ability, but we also know there seem to be people who just manifest it without making any conscious effort.

@Valmar - I do think you would agree it is at the least *possible* that in the pool of patients with apraxia we may find a higher concentration of telepaths? With all [due] respect to your concerns I do think it would be fallacious to claim that this possibility should be dismissed before looking at research. I would even compare this to the possibility that psychedelics confer telepathy, as there are people who think that is also impossible.

That is precisely what worries me here ~ that a very vulnerable group can be exploited for the gain of some other people.

Just because I am classed as "high-functioning" means nothing ~ I've seen other high-functioning Autistic people who are quite vulnerable emotionally.

Yeah I think the Daily Grail article struck the right balance - we don't want to silence the voices of those with apraxia, but we also don't want to project onto the group powers they may not have.

I have felt a similar wariness toward Kastrup's use of Dissociated Identity Disorder as a means of explaining his Idealist views even though that is far more indirect of an association. This isn't to say I believe Kastrup is exploiting patients with DID, just that I worry what it would mean for DID to be seen as a microcosm of the larger Truth....especially with regards to Kastrup's Idealism just seeming like a Mechanistic philosophy that is - AFAICTell - barely different from nihilistic Materialism...

It would be great to learn that there is a pool of potential subjects whose capacity for Psi will produce far better results than what we've gotten in the past decades, but given the vulnerability of this population I personally - and I suspect many others - want to see stronger studies + independent replication.

OTOH I will admit I have not watched the tapes nor even followed the latest research very closely, so I don't want to claim that it's all hogwash. Perhaps watching the tapes behind the paywall will give me more confidence that there is genuine telepathy going on here.

I also realize there are questions of getting funding, but mirroring my concerns about Tom Campbell's site I am wary of what feels like a greater turn toward putting out products for people to buy. At least the Telepathy Tapes so far is only selling merch and not promising some kind of telepathy development kit...

It's pretty clear from your comments that very few relevant details have stuck with you - to whatever extent you actually have listened to any episodes of the podcast.

I listen ~ but I have far from a photographic memory, so I tend to recall what is relevant in the moment. That's all.

In other words, you have no way of knowing whether the non-verbal autistic individuals you've (merely) "seen" are telepathic or not, yet you boldly claim that they're not anyway.

I rather think we need to demonstrate that these individuals are telepathic first, not presume that they are. Just as we would with the general populace. 

There's no projection here. Your offensive comments have angered me, but I'm not misrepresenting facts like you are.

I am not "misrepresenting" anything, as far as I am aware? We have not established that the claims are "factual". That's not to say that there aren't telepathic individuals ~ but then, how can we know for certain, except by more rigorous testing by parapsychologists and verified telepathic psychics?

Do you understand what I am interested in? Rigorous corroboration by those who are known to specialize in the scientific study of telepathy.

They're not being used, they're being truly seen - with their excited consent - for the first time. Apparently, you'd be content for their experience to be swept under the carpet and denied.

I have suggested no such thing whatsoever. It's extremely bold of you to assert that I want any such experiences to be "swept under the carpet and denied". I ask for caution, rather than just automatic acceptance.

Besides, how do you know that they're not being used? I am not suggesting that they are ~ but there is always a risk, with such groups, alas. It happens.

I sincerely doubt that you've been diagnosed with apraxia, so that's an irrelevant comment.

... what? I was talking about my Autism / Asperger's diagnosis...?