Beauty in religion

I'm having a hard time at the moment.  As you all know, I am a Christian but today I have been listening to songs from a couple of Hare Krsna albums on Youtube while looking at images of Krsna and Radha together, him playing his flute and the animals lying peacefully and unafraid around them.  I think that in all my attempts to do God's will, I often miss out on the treasures he has given to us all and it is not Christian music and art that opens me up to them, but Krsna art and music.  I know there is a lot of beauty in the bible too but it seems to hide amongst the tough stuff.  I wonder what kind of god we would see if we looked for the beautiful spirit behind Krsna music in the Bible or any other religious text.  The fruits of the spirit that the apostle Paul spoke of come to mind; love, joy, peace, gentleness, faithfullness, self control etc.  So why does this not come across in the music and art of Christianity?  Have we treated the Bible wrongly as an instruction manual - a book of law,  and blinded ourselves to the kindness and grace of a god who wants us to view him as a loving father and the beauty of his creation?  I would like this thread to be somewhere where people can express their own feelings about the beauty in all religions so feel free.

To an extent, what you're talking about sounds like a case of "the grass is greener." I wasn't raised in any faith tradition, but to take one example, I find that the ceremonial rites, traditional music, and architectural design of older churches and cathedrals of Catholicism (and its closest relations) rather beautiful and spiritual, despite being agnostic. The funeral services carried out for my grandfather this year certainly made that process easier to deal with.

(On the flip side, my mother's joined a non-denominational Christian church in the last few years, based in an old strip mall and packing services built on dad jokes and Christian rock. Whenever she tries to get me to go with her, her selling point is "it's nothing like the Catholic church." Why that line is supposed to work on me, when I have no formal experience inside that church to be upset by and have firmly arcane tastes in music and design that cannot stand the aesthetics of her church, I have no idea.)

[Ninshub]

I'm not Christian (nor identify myself with any religion for that matter) but when talking about Christianity-inspired music, so much of the West's classical music repertoire is just aching with beauty precisely and specifically when it's tied in with the spiritual. Mozart's Requiem, Bach's celebrates masses, the list goes on and on. I don't feel anything "tough" or related to the "law" in most of those great works. I mean it's probably where Christianity's influence on art and culture has been the most excellent (?).

I sang tenor in a choir but the music I enjoyed was precisely those works, they really created some wonderful peak moment "transcendent" experiences for me, and when that last choir I was in changed to non-faith-inspired classical music for a season, I quit because I could just not get into the music.

I've spent too much time in near fundamentalist churches I think.  You are right of course, I love Gregorian Chant for example, but when it comes to praise, I feel we have lost the plot.  Maybe agnostics don't understand this one but imagine how good it feels to be able to say to your loved ones "I love you" magnified maybe 50 times or more.  Here's a couple of examples of what I was referring to.





The only two Christian songs I know of that come close to this are "How Great Thou Art" and Michael Card's "El-Shaddai"

Requiem mass stirs my soul, even though I'm not religious. I've been to so many funerals (more recently). One in particular was that of an (ancient) old friend of my (long since deceased) father who was something of a genuine hero (Japanese prisoner of war).

He had military honours (trumpets etc) and hymns. I struggled to keep myself together. The music was sublime.

To some extent I'm an outsider in that I'm not attached to religion. Culturally I have a Christian background, I have a familiarity with and ability to relate to Christian ideas and its related culture such as buildings and their decoration. More broadly, I lean towards a sympathy with religion in that I feel it is attending to something important which is both neglected and despised in some sectors. But still, I'm on the outside, looking in.

When it comes to beauty, I would use that as a measure. Where we find beauty, we may get closer to the heart of something important. But it takes many forms, to a mathematician, the equation e^(iπ) +1 = 0 may be a thing of beauty. In art or music there are a lot of subjective views. At the heart of this is something which moves us. But to be moved is not sufficient. We may be moved to rage or destroy. So in this context it is something which takes us beyond our everyday concerns and is uplifting.

For myself, I had one such moment when gazing out over the wide blue Mississippi, seeing the dazzling sunlight sparkle on its waters, majestic birds seemingly floating effortlessly in the skies above. For a short time I was taken out of whatever had been my mundane concerns a moment before. The vantage point was at a prehistoric site. Clearly the ancients found something there too.

Occasionally I've been moved 'out of myself' on entering some cathedral or other - such buildings are often inspiring, in and of themselves.

But for me, it is usually just the outdoors, away from towns and cities which is my preferred choice.

When it comes to music, I spent much of my childhood listening to music from my father's part of the world, in languages I couldn't understand. Perhaps as a result, I rarely listen to the words of music which I'm listening to. Sometimes I find I'm hearing some wonderful music, unaware that it is part of some religious service. To me it doesn't matter. Or perhaps I should say, I prefer it that way. When I do hear words, spoken or sung, I tend to find myself debating over them, arguing inwardly over their meaning. As such they are a distraction, even though I love vocal music.

Well, I guess I've made this into a somewhat personal account, rather than a focus strictly on the topic. Perhaps I should end where I began, saying that I think beauty can be guide, a pointer of the way, as well as something of immediate benefit. Where we find beauty we may find truth.

But for me, it is usually just the outdoors, away from towns and cities which is my preferred choice.

Loud and clear!

"When through the woods and forest glades I wander
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees
When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur
And see the brook and feel the gentle breeze
Then sings my soul, my saviour God to thee
How great thou art; How great thou art!"

"We look on the same stars, the sky is common, the same world
surrounds us. What difference does it make by what pains each seeks
the truth? We cannot attain to so great a secret by one road alone."
                        --Symmachus,  (c. 340-c. 405)

Admittedly there are a lot of roads that I think are beyond the pale, involving the direct harm of others, but otherwise I think the statement - written in a letter asking for the allowance of continuing pagan traditions - rings true.

I'm having a hard time at the moment.  As you all know, I am a Christian but today I have been listening to songs from a couple of Hare Krsna albums on Youtube while looking at images of Krsna and Radha together, him playing his flute and the animals lying peacefully and unafraid around them.  I think that in all my attempts to do God's will, I often miss out on the treasures he has given to us all and it is not Christian music and art that opens me up to them, but Krsna art and music.  I know there is a lot of beauty in the bible too but it seems to hide amongst the tough stuff.  I wonder what kind of god we would see if we looked for the beautiful spirit behind Krsna music in the Bible or any other religious text.  The fruits of the spirit that the apostle Paul spoke of come to mind; love, joy, peace, gentleness, faithfullness, self control etc.  So why does this not come across in the music and art of Christianity?  Have we treated the Bible wrongly as an instruction manual - a book of law,  and blinded ourselves to the kindness and grace of a god who wants us to view him as a loving father and the beauty of his creation?  I would like this thread to be somewhere where people can express their own feelings about the beauty in all religions so feel free.

As has been pointed out, there is wonderful beauty in the music, art, literature, architecture and other cultural products of Christian society. The problem is, the "tough stuff" as you term it can overpower this emotionally unless you are a born-again true believer type. This boils down to the fundamental teachings saying that you simply go to hell if you don't accept Christ as your personal savior, as you also do if you commit any of a number of mortal sins specified in the holy book. So the element of fear enters strongly into the religion. This kind of detracts from the appreciation of the real beauty that is also there.

As has been pointed out, there is wonderful beauty in the music, art, literature, architecture and other cultural products of Christian society. The problem is, the "tough stuff" as you term it can overpower this emotionally unless you are a born-again true believer type. This boils down to the fundamental teachings saying that you simply go to hell if you don't accept Christ as your personal savior, as you also do if you commit any of a number of mortal sins specified in the holy book. So the element of fear enters strongly into the religion. This kind of detracts from the appreciation of the real beauty that is also there.

Your point is well made but for one thing  - I don't see hell as fundemental.  The word is a deliberate mistranslation of Gehenna which is a physical valley near mount Zion and not a place of eternal damnation.  The word Hell is derived from nordic paganism where Hel is both the world of the dead and the punishing goddess who resides there.  I keep meaning to write a PDF on the biblical proofs that death=death and nothing more and one day I ill get around to it and post a link.