Anaesthesia's effect on consciousness solved

Actually both the Sci Daily publications make note of this in their articles, so it is just even stranger that say something is solved in the headline but mitigate the completeness of the solution in the details.

Gotta get them clicks!


I'd be curious for Hammeroff's reaction as well.

Immersing a working TV set in some sort of electrically conductive mist would drastically hamper the operation of its millions of tiny silicon transistors and consequently disrupt the picture and sound. But this certainly wouldn't do anything to disrupt the actual program being displayed by the TV. This sort of research is very sophisticated, but in its significance to the mind-body problem it is no more important than the common observation that alcohol and neural blood clots have varying and sometimes drastic effects on consciousness.

As someone who has spilled liquids onto laptops one two many times while streaming something on the internet this is a great analogy.

Immersing a working TV set in some sort of electrically conductive mist would drastically hamper the operation of its millions of tiny silicon transistors and consequently disrupt the picture and sound. But this certainly wouldn't do anything to disrupt the actual program being displayed by the TV.

I strongly agree that mind sensations have better correspondence to a transmission model, than the "emergent" model. Being doped does cause a loss of awareness and does remove the inner context of thought.  Recovering from anesthetic, I have always come from just buzzing and needed to find that context of inner dialogue.  Where, who, how - come quick but seem to need a reboot.

In reported cases of an NDE or other sensitive experience,  the context of self is not lost.  There is no slow dawning of context and deeply felt meaning, as to self, are emphasized.  Knocking out neuronal processing doesn't match the phenomenal events of Psi.

A transmission model does need to address the fact that all the programming is outside the unit in the case of the tv; in the case of mind it generates context for experience and reciprocal information content to outside stimulus.

As an NDE proponent myself, I'm not sure. I think I may have overreacted to the headline and let my death anxiety get the best of me. I was curious as to whether this would be relevant to anaesthesia awareness and how that is (often poorly) compared to NDEs.

What makes you anxious Omni?
There seems to me so much evidence (of which NDEs are only a part) that the chance of the purely-production theory being proved correct Is vanishingly small. I’d even say impossible in practical terms.

What makes you anxious Omni?
There seems to me so much evidence (of which NDEs are only a part) that the chance of the purely-production theory being proved correct Is vanishingly small. I’d even say impossible in practical terms.

Multiple reasons personally, some of which are my own fault (I'll be ranting a lot here so please bearwith):

1. These sensationalised studies and misleading articles never seem to end and are paraded around on other forums. It was back in January I stumbled upon a forum that seemed to be quite large and old. They'd only just started discussing NDEs back in 2019 and the pseudo-skepticism and anti-skepticism on their was disgusting. The ringleaders weren't just cynical, they were bullies. They'd make unproven assertions, viciously attack or mock proponents and break the rules of their own forums, while avoiding threads with evidence against their beliefs. One of them for example, upon reading an article in Psychology Today about Peter Fenwick that was from 2019, referred to him as a 'crackpot old fool' and then began to praise the likes of Sean Carroll, Richard Dawkins etc. as 'real scientists'. There was a lot of laziness and poor debating on there but the things they said about anyone who dared to oppose materialism were so hurtful they sometimes trouble me to this day. I will gladly drop the name of said forum if necessary, especially since sometimes I worry they're still just harassing anyone who isn't a materialist who decides to voice their views (they also still believe that nonsense written about Eben Alexander in the Esquire article despite IANDS having debunked it). 
   
2. I was sick of seeing the skepticforum crop up whenever I looked for things like the NDE cases covered in The Self Does Not Die. Even though I've found flaws in this 'Shen's' so-called 'skeptical looks' myself (I even posted a lengthy response to his thread on Lynnclaire Dennis' NDE back on Reddit), it's still annoying knowing it gets some attention. It makes me feel more alone and hopeless sometimes knowing poorly researched articles get attention they don't deserve. That's why, when I was on Reddit, I made a whole post basically recommending this place to those interested in legitimate discussion, news, research and evidence. 
   
3. These articles never seeming to end makes me doubt myself and my own experiences and research. I'm pessimistic and have anxiety/confidence issues that I'm working to improve via CBT and whatnot, so I tend to play Devil's Advocate with myself. 
   
4. There are still other theories of consciousness besides the emergent theory that don't allow for consciousness survival that trouble me. 
   
5. I'm upset that the research from the likes of the UVA is met with extreme cynicism sometimes. This includes on their YouTube videos, as well as on (you guessed it) Reddit. There was genuinely a post I'd seen on the r/Skeptic subreddit that was trying to debunk the methods the UVA apply in their research into evidence, and even the skeptics on there didn't approve of the OPs attitude to their work. 
   
6. Many average folk still believe that some NDErs may just be liars or biased. I know this from my time on other social media sites and news articles. 
   
7. Prominent neuroscientists who are generally informed about NDEs like Steven Novella are still not convinced and are more intent on debunking them. 
   
8. I fear that veridical NDEs will never be captured in the settings necessary for some people to take them more seriously. The fact that some people still Judy dismiss them as mere stories baffles me.  
   
9. I suffer from thanatophobia, though it's not as bad as it used to be, it did lead to an existential depression that lasted for many months and I'm recovering from. 
   

I do apologize that I'm repetitively overreacting to these studies, but things like 'consciousness' are my trigger words. I'm trying not to rely on reassurance too much but with the news wiki down I'm having to rely on this for updates:

https://mobile.twitter.com/neardeath/sta...4248270848

I will gladly make a thread about this kind of stuff if approved where I can vent my worries, frustrations and fears. Alternatively I am open to talking to those who are open-minded. I have before already, and I appreciated it.

[Laird]

I will gladly make a thread about this kind of stuff if approved where I can vent my worries, frustrations and fears. Alternatively I am open to talking to those who are open-minded.

From my perspective, not only is a thread like that approved, it is actively encouraged. You are not the first person we have had join this forum to say, "I have a pre-existing fear of death which has been worsened to the point of psychological trauma by the vigorous promotion of the 'skeptical'/materialist/atheist perspective, and the supposed 'rational' basis of that perspective".

[ETA: in fact, this very problem applies to at least one of the founders of this forum.]

I would even be open to the idea that we need an entire subforum devoted to such experience(r)s - a subforum titled something like "Psychological refugees from [and/or 'victims of'] skeptical materialism" (other naming ideas welcome).

From my perspective, not only is a thread like that approved, it is actively encouraged. You are not the first person we have had join this forum to say, "I have a pre-existing fear of death which has been worsened to the point of psychological trauma by the vigorous promotion of the 'skeptical'/materialist/atheist perspective, and the supposed 'rational' basis of that perspective".

In fact, I would be open to the idea that we need an entire forum devoted to such experience(r)s - a forum titled something like "Psychological refugees from [and/or 'victims of'] skeptical materialism" (other naming ideas welcome).

Thank you Laird. I will summarise and elaborate on my thought and feelings with a thread sometime soon. Hopefully it can be used in the future for such people like myself who have had these worries. I've noticed a few on this forum myself and the responses have been wise and thoughtful.

[Laird]

Glad to hear, Omni. Also, a brief follow-up to clarify re this:

I'm trying not to rely on reassurance too much but with the news wiki down

Are you referring to Psience News?

Regarding death and an existential crisis, I have some thoughts.

I did go through my own existential crisis - many years ago. Though for me death was never a concern. What bothered me more was living.

If I saw a bus or large vehicle coming down the road towards me at great speed, I'd step back out of the way, to avoid being hit. But for me that isn't fear of death, but avoiding pointlessness. If something unavoidable happens that's one thing, but if I consciously allow myself to come to harm, I'd want it to be for a reason. Avoiding pointlessness, that was my existential crisis. Every night I avoided going to sleep, I couldn't see the point of it. In the morning, I avoided getting up, I couldn't see the point of that either. This went on for weeks, months. Of course my health suffered, I was in a state of neglect. But I needed a reason to live, a reason to do anything. That went into some sort of spiral until I reached despair, I simply couldn't go on for another day. I did the only thing left. I prayed. Remarkably I got an answer. It wasn't anything I can describe, but my life changed dramatically for the better. I came to understand that I belonged to something much bigger, was not just an isolated speck, but was connected. At that time I also discovered reincarnation and some evidence of my own past began to fall into place.

I felt myself in danger then. First in danger of becoming a religious nut. Second in danger of becoming obsessed with my own identity and past. Those fears faded with the passage of time. I'm not in any way religious, don't subscribe to any particular beliefs. I no longer have any particular concerns about the past. I feel it is very long, reaching back to primitive times, perhaps around the last Ice Age things resonate for me, as well as times between then and now.

As for the reasons to live, why do anything at all? Having arrived at a larger perspective, both in a longer timescale than a single lifetime, and in a larger spiritual sense, I guess I concluded there was nothing else to do but live. Dying has never really been a concern for me. I think I always understood that it is just an illusion, or perhaps this life is an illusion. At any rate we carry on living regardless.

Regarding some comments from OmniVersalNexus about visiting various sites where (pseudo-)sceptics gather to ridicule the evidence or any serious consideration of it. I think one has to strike a balance. Of course there is a need to look at the facts, and it is necessary to look in varied places to make sure something important has not been missed. That would be called research. But going to places where there is not discussion but ridicule, to spend much time there strikes me as a form of self-harm. It doesn't seem  to me a healthy way to be spending time.