“Realer than this life” perception during an NDE

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(2024-07-09, 06:27 AM)sbu Wrote: I accept that the Loch Ness monster is not a fair comparison.

It’s however still a valid point that NDEs where


happens all the time isn’t true.

After 50 years of study a few good cases has been collected. Zero in prospective studies.

A few good cases? I wouldn't call over a hundred a "few".

The NDEs that are happening all the time are the great majority where the unusual circumstances of a documented investigated veridical NDE just happened not to occur. These unusual circumstances require the NDEr (despite the great distractions caused by his extraordinary new situation) to just happen to be interested enough to remember and later give in a detailed account the details of the external circumstances such as floating above the "death" or dying scene and paying close attention to the actions and identities of the health workers working on his body below, or for instance of just happening to proceed further through the transitioning tunnel or other medium only to encounter a deceased loved one who the NDEr just happens not to know is dead. Or one of the other types of potentially veridical interacton that do occur though rarely, such as appearing to a family member or friend at some great distance from the NDEr's body.

The last but all important special circumstance is that an independent medical or scientific investigator (of which there are only a few, mainly due to lack of funding sources) just happens to find this unusual type of NDE case, and investigates it thoroughly. 

The point is that there is absolutely no legitimate reason skeptics (even apparently AwareofAware) should be able to get away with claiming that only the veridical cases have even a chance of being genuine and that all the others must have conventional explanations. These skeptics especially have no legitimate reason to reject veridical cases where medical personnel were not present and involved. The skeptics are apparently claiming that all non-medical doctors and other personnel are completely unreliable. Their assumption is that everybody else in the population (all those that are not in that particular line of work) are very unreliable observers, even inclined to lie or commit fraud, or to experience hallucinations. This skeptic assumption is obviously and egregiously false.

Both groups of NDEs (all veridical and the non-veridical) share exactly the same patterns and characteristics, and should be considered basically parts of the same phenomenon.
(This post was last modified: 2024-07-09, 04:24 PM by nbtruthman. Edited 4 times in total.)
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(2024-07-09, 03:46 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: A few good cases? I wouldn't call over a hundred a "few".

It’s an incredible low number compared to the number of total cardiac arrests in the western world during the same time span which is in the range of 400000000

This gives a rate of 0.000025% and in prospective studies a rate of 0%

I’m happy for you if these numbers makes you see white crows. I don’t see them.
(This post was last modified: 2024-07-09, 06:50 PM by sbu. Edited 4 times in total.)
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(2024-07-09, 06:34 PM)sbu Wrote: It’s an incredible low number compared to the number of total cardiac arrests in the western world during the same time span which is in the range of 400000000

I fail to see the point you['re] making?

My guess is the total number of actual dreams outpaces the number of remembered dreams.

The number of lucid dreamers is definitely lower than the total number of dreamers.

But lucid dreaming, like NDEs, is pervasive enough and has been investigated enough that at the very least both phenomena are happening.

NDEs, additionally, have the cases where veridical information is obtained or the OOBE is witnessed.

I think it again comes down to either all these people are liars and fools or there is something of interest happening. Since the materialist faith is obviously false and there are good reasons to think the Mind is not like the physical, and the NDE cases share worthwhile commonalities with other Survival evidence, the idea that consciousness continues after bodily death feels quite reasonable to me.

I don't think everyone has to concede that Survival is true, there is still room for doubt. But these attempts to filter out supposedly bad cases - which apparently includes ones where witnesses are not HCP - feels like poisoning the well to me.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(This post was last modified: 2024-07-09, 06:55 PM by Sciborg_S_Patel. Edited 1 time in total.)
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Including cases that does not involve HCP’s means that cases that aren’t even cardiac arrests gets included among other methological errors.

And by the way - my point is simply that these cases doesn’t happen all the time. They are rare.
(2024-07-09, 07:30 PM)sbu Wrote: Including cases that does not involve HCP’s means that cases that aren’t even cardiac arrests gets included among other methological errors.

And by the way - my point is simply that these cases doesn’t happen all the time. They are rare.

I do agree the NDE cases are rarer than the total number of hospitalizations for near fatal issues.

I just think this attempt to severely narrow down the number of cases feels dishonest. Feels like an attempt to make the debunking more manageable, and even then I'm pretty sure there are HCP cases left out.

HCP can lie as well, and people who aren't HCP can be quite trustworthy. If someone wants to be genuinely skeptical they can perhaps double check the cases in Self Does Not Die, but simply dismissing the over one-hundred cases for a spurious reason like witnesses weren't HCP is just a cheap tactic.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


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(2024-07-09, 07:43 PM)Sciborg_S_Patel Wrote: I do agree the NDE cases are rarer than the total number of hospitalizations for near fatal issues.

I just think this attempt to severely narrow down the number of cases feels dishonest. Feels like an attempt to make the debunking more manageable, and even then I'm pretty sure there are HCP cases left out.

HCP can lie as well, and people who aren't HCP can be quite trustworthy. If someone wants to be genuinely skeptical they can perhaps double check the cases in Self Does Not Die, but simply dismissing the over one-hundred cases for a spurious reason like witnesses weren't HCP is just a cheap tactic.

I don’t dispute that there are a small number of anomalies (and I don't think anyone tries to explain them away by claiming people are lying). But the fact is still that we are looking at frequencies close to 0% and at present we must expect that most resusication professionals never have encountered such a case. I’m simply refuting that there are cases verified by health care professionals “happening all the time”. It’s making a mountain out of a molehill. This is exactly the un-skeptical behaviour that makes the american deserted littered with crashed ufos in some peoples mind.
(This post was last modified: 2024-07-10, 08:23 AM by sbu. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(2024-07-10, 07:34 AM)sbu Wrote: I don’t dispute that there are a small number of anomalies (and I don't think anyone tries to explain them away by claiming people are lying). But the fact is still that we are looking at frequencies close to 0% and at present we must expect that most resusication professionals never have encountered such a case. I’m simply refuting that there are cases verified by health care professionals “happening all the time”. It’s making a mountain out of a molehill. This is exactly the un-skeptical behaviour that makes the american deserted littered with crashed ufos in some peoples mind.

If we're talking strictly NDEs then I would agree that it's unlikely HCP are encountering these cases all the time, if by the latter we mean even 1 out of 3 cases of someone dying in a medical setting.

But given the prejudice against reporting these Weird events surrounding death, at least at the more academic level of medicine, then I am not actually sure how one quantifies the unknown number of possibly paranormal events (Clocks stopping, weird electrical outages, the dying claiming to see spirits or dead loved ones, outright NDEs, etc). 

If you talk to nurses, orderlies, and other such "low level" staff I believe you'll find way more Weird events. Some seem to believe these events do happen a lot.
'Historically, we may regard materialism as a system of dogma set up to combat orthodox dogma...Accordingly we find that, as ancient orthodoxies disintegrate, materialism more and more gives way to scepticism.'

- Bertrand Russell


(2024-07-10, 07:34 AM)sbu Wrote: I don’t dispute that there are a small number of anomalies (and I don't think anyone tries to explain them away by claiming people are lying). But the fact is still that we are looking at frequencies close to 0% and at present we must expect that most resusication professionals never have encountered such a case. I’m simply refuting that there are cases verified by health care professionals “happening all the time”. It’s making a mountain out of a molehill. This is exactly the un-skeptical behaviour that makes the american deserted littered with crashed ufos in some peoples mind.

Making a mountain out of a molehill? 

Sam Parnia MD, PhD is a medical doctor and scientist and is the person who has conducted the most medical research into the phenomenon of NDEs, most notably the AWARE studies. He is director of the Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation Research Program at NYU Langone. Please peruse the following partial quote from his recent (2022) statement of his conclusions after much study, at https://nyulangone.org/news/recalled-exp...ucinations . Besides Dr. Parnia, a multidisciplinary group of 17 other medical science experts were also involved with this study. And the evidence has only expanded in the time since this statement.

Do you still contend that NDEs are a tiny probability of occurence marginally existent phenomenon with no concrete evidence of reality? I guess then that you must contend that Parnia is a liar or a fool.

Quote:"Due to advances in resuscitation and critical care medicine, many people have survived encounters with death or being near-death. These people—who are estimated to comprise hundreds of millions of people around the world based on previous population studies—have consistently described recalled experiences surrounding death, which involve a unique set of mental recollections with universal themes.

The recalled experiences surrounding death are not consistent with hallucinations, illusions, or psychedelic drug–induced experiences, according to several previously published studies. Instead, they follow a specific narrative arc involving a perception of (a) separation from the body with a heightened, vast sense of consciousness and recognition of death; (b) travel to a destination; (c) a meaningful and purposeful review of life, involving a critical analysis of all actions, intentions, and thoughts towards others; a perception of (d) being in a place that feels like “home”; and (e) a return back to life.

The experience of death culminates into previously unidentified, separate subthemes and is associated with positive long-term psychological transformation and growth.
Studies showing the emergence of gamma activity and electrical spikes—ordinarily a sign of heightened states of consciousness on electroencephalography (EEG)—in relation to death further support the claims of millions of people who have reported experiencing lucidity and heightened consciousness in relation to death.
Frightening or distressing experiences in relation to death often neither share the same themes, nor the same narrative, transcendent qualities, ineffability, and positive transformative effects."
(This post was last modified: 2024-07-11, 09:02 PM by nbtruthman. Edited 1 time in total.)
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(2024-07-11, 09:00 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: Making a mountain out of a molehill? 

Sam Parnia MD, PhD is a medical doctor and scientist and is the person who has conducted the most medical research into the phenomenon of NDEs, most notably the AWARE studies. He is director of the Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation Research Program at NYU Langone. Please peruse the following partial quote from his recent (2022) statement of his conclusions after much study, at https://nyulangone.org/news/recalled-exp...ucinations . Besides Dr. Parnia, a multidisciplinary group of 17 other medical science experts were also involved with this study. And the evidence has only expanded in the time since this statement.

Do you still contend that NDEs are a tiny probability of occurence marginally existent phenomenon with no concrete evidence of reality? I guess then that you must contend that Parnia is a liar or a fool.

No no no the two of you. Mixins with dead bed visions and common non-veridical NDEs doesn’t corroborate the false claim (to quote nbtruthman)

Quote:Another such aspect is for instance that there have been many (and they are occuring all the time) veridical NDEs where details in the NDErs' accounts are later verified and documented by independent investigators (such as the doings and identities of members of the rescusitation team working on his body below his floating vantage point), details that he had absolutely no possibility of observing physically.

When in fact the data supports a frequency of 0% veridical NDEs in prospective studies and 0.000025% in total estimated cardiac arrests in the western world during the last 50 years.
(This post was last modified: 2024-07-11, 09:33 PM by sbu. Edited 2 times in total.)
(2024-07-11, 09:25 PM)sbu Wrote: No no no the two of you. Mixins with dead bed visions and common non-veridical NDEs doesn’t corroborate the false claim (to quote nbtruthman)


When in fact the data supports a frequency of 0% veridical NDEs in prospective studies and 0.000025% in total estimated cardiac arrests in the western world during the last 50 years.

I do guess then that you are essentially saying that Parnia (and the other experts involved) are liars or fools or both. I don't find that contention to be possible or credible - in fact, it's ridiculous.
(This post was last modified: 2024-07-11, 09:51 PM by nbtruthman. Edited 1 time in total.)
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