“Realer than this life” perception during an NDE

One thing that’s always bothered me about the claim from NDE’ers’ that it is “more real than real” or “more real than this reality,” is that ..

Back in the day, when younger and a chronic cannabis smoker, there were a few times where , when high, I thought to myself , “this is more real than my everyday life”… meaning “the way I was seeing , feeling, thinking , experiencing “ while high was more “real” or “true” than what I think , feel or experience things regularly .

I haven’t or don’t really read stories of those who take LSD or DMT or things like that and maybe it’s similar .

So unless one is claiming some sort of idealism or that there is an objective reality that NDE’s, drugs , meditation, etc gives us access to… then why would I believe the “afterlife” that NDE’ers’ report is more “real,” than the way I feel when I would be stoned ?

Ive never liked the word 'afterlife'. The reason being, it places this life in a physical body as the foundation and afterlife as some sort of optional extra tagged on - or not - afterwards.

I take the view that there is only life.

In terms of the NDE, mostly we're dealing with situations of reduced or impaired brain functionality. There are experiences of a similar kind where the brain is perfectly healthy, they are sometimes called NDEs but are also termed STE (spiritually transformative experience) or other names. But if we can have these experiences regardless of the state of the brain, it suggests to me that the brain and body is not the foundation, it is merely a sort of vehicle or packaging in which we travel, like a spacesuit or a diving suit.

Anyone who climbs into a heavy deep-sea diving suit still experiences being alive, they can move their arms and legs but it is a great encumbrance. The feeling of lightness after emerging and being free once more is how I might imagine, metaphorically, existing without this body.

One thing that’s always bothered me about the claim from NDE’ers’ that it is “more real than real” or “more real than this reality,” is that ..

Back in the day, when younger and a chronic cannabis smoker, there were a few times where , when high, I thought to myself , “this is more real than my everyday life”… meaning “the way I was seeing , feeling, thinking , experiencing “ while high was more “real” or “true” than what I think , feel or experience things regularly .

I haven’t or don’t really read stories of those who take LSD or DMT or things like that and maybe it’s similar .

So unless one is claiming some sort of idealism or that there is an objective reality that NDE’s, drugs , meditation, etc gives us access to… then why would I believe the “afterlife” that NDE’ers’ report is more “real,” than the way I feel when I would be stoned ?

There has been research that showed that the characteristics of experiences during NDEs are actually much closer to the characterictics of real life experiences than to hallucinations. 

More importantly, several aspects of NDEs are totally uncanny and impossible under the conventional physicalist belief that all conscious experience is in essence the physical interactions of billions of neurons in the brain. One is the fact mentioned by Typoz that many or most NDEs occur while the NDErs' physical brains were dysfunctional due to severe trauma such as cardiac arrest. That this can happen with consciousness in a hyper-clear realer than real state is especially inexplicable under physicalism. If the brain is dysfunctional with little or no organized activity and is in the process of slowly dying, physicalism says there will be no consciousness of any sort, much less enhanced.

Another such aspect is for instance that there have been many (and they are occuring all the time) veridical NDEs where details in the NDErs' accounts are later verified and documented by independent investigators (such as the doings and identities of members of the rescusitation team working on his body below his floating vantage point), details that he had absolutely no possibility of observing physically.

Another type of later verified to be true piece of physically uncanny information is the occasional encounter during a deep NDE with a deceased loved one, that the NDEr did not know had died. There are several other types of verified veridical observations during NDEs that are uncanny and impossible according to physicalist neurological thinking.

Ive never liked the word 'afterlife'. The reason being, it places this life in a physical body as the foundation and afterlife as some sort of optional extra tagged on - or not - afterwards.

I take the view that there is only life.

One omission from my earlier post. Since the early 1980s when I battled through physical disease and existential depression, I had a vivid insight about my past life. Ever since then I've taken it for granted that I existed before I was born into this body. It also gave me a feeling that whatever I was, whether troubled or joyful, was in some way indestructible.

Hence my view that basically there's no need to be concerned about an afterlife, it is just another word for the beforelife and in any case, the chances are that sooner or later I could find myself back here in a different body. These ideas just lead to more questions of course, such as how long is the interval between lives and what is one doing when not inhabiting a body. But lack of definitive answers doesn't mean I don't consider these legitimate and serious topics. i.e. they are sensible questions.

In the end though there is only now, the eternal present moment, that's where the action is taking place.

* Apologies for straying from the original 'realer than real' topic.

Another such aspect is for instance that there have been many (and they are occuring all the time) veridical NDEs where details in the NDErs' accounts are later verified and documented by independent investigators (such as the doings and identities of members of the rescusitation team working on his body below his floating vantage point),

I wish this was true, but according to a recent poll at the AwareOfAware web site they could hardly find 5 ever:

https://awareofaware.co/2023/11/18/top-five-ndes/

Ps. I’m aware that Rudolf Smit reportedly has collected 104 cases but I’m not sure they all fulfill the inclusion criteria requested in the AwareOfAware thread.

I wish this was true, but according to a recent poll at the AwareOfAware web site they could hardly find 5 ever:

https://awareofaware.co/2023/11/18/top-five-ndes/

Ps. I’m aware that Rudolf Smit reportedly has collected 104 cases but I’m not sure they all fulfill the inclusion criteria requested in the AwareOfAware thread.

Doesn't seem like Bruce Greyson's account of a patient's NDE is on there?

I'd have to go back into the literature but at first glance even within their strict criteria feels like they are missing cases.

Beyond that, I personally think having only Health Care Personnel verified NDEs is kind of a bizarre criteria. Is the idea that everyone else who has ever confirmed an NDE is lying or was fooled?

Imagine if the only witnesses in court cases had to be cops...

I wish this was true, but according to a recent poll at the AwareOfAware web site they could hardly find 5 ever:

https://awareofaware.co/2023/11/18/top-five-ndes/

Ps. I’m aware that Rudolf Smit reportedly has collected 104 cases but I’m not sure they all fulfill the inclusion criteria requested in the AwareOfAware thread.

I think you are forgetting the good old one white crow principle first observed by William James. All you need to establish that white crows do in fact exist is to find one of them. And also, to establish that white crows absolutely don't exist requires you to plausibly explain away every single observation of white crows, which for a lot of observations becomes essentially impossible. This principle would require you to convincingly and plausibly explain away every single one of the over 100 verified cases documented in the well known compilation of documented veridical NDEs The Self Does Not Die.

I think you are forgetting the good old one white crow principle first observed by William James. All you need to establish that white crows do in fact exist is to find one of them. And also, to establish that white crows absolutely don't exist requires you to plausibly explain away every single observation of white crows, which for a lot of observations becomes essentially impossible. This principle would require you to convincingly and plausibly explain away every single one of the over 100 verified cases documented in the well known compilation of documented veridical NDEs The Self Does Not Die.

I was merely pointing out that it’s not true that these cases are occuring all the time. They are in fact incredible rare.

And remember by your reasoning the Loch Ness monster is also proven to exist.

I was merely pointing out that it’s not true that these cases are occuring all the time. They are in fact incredible rare.

And remember by your reasoning the Loch Ness monster is also proven to exist.

I don't think the comparison is all that fitting.

The Loch Ness monster is an isolated physical creature in a body of water. The idea that a dinosaur survived for millions of years isn't likely given what we know about biological life forms. [That said I would actually be willing to consider some entity is in Loch Ness if the cases are good, I've not looked deeply into them.]

NDEs are far more pervasive and there are good reasons to think that consciousness is immaterial + not producible by the brain.

As to their rarity, obviously the HCP witnessed cases will be lower than the general number. However even that list of 5 seems too small for HCP cases?

I don't think the comparison is all that fitting.

The Loch Ness monster is an isolated physical creature in a body of water. The idea that a dinosaur survived for millions of years isn't likely given what we know about biological life forms. [That said I would actually be willing to consider some entity is in Loch Ness if the cases are good, I've not looked deeply into them.]

NDEs are far more pervasive and there are good reasons to think that consciousness is immaterial + not producible by the brain.

As to their rarity, obviously the HCP witnessed cases will be lower than the general number. However even that list of 5 seems too small for HCP cases?

I accept that the Loch Ness monster is not a fair comparison.

It’s however still a valid point that NDEs where

accounts are later verified and documented by independent investigators

happens all the time isn’t true.

After 50 years of study a few good cases has been collected. Zero in prospective studies.