(2017-09-08, 04:21 PM)Roberta Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think ION's and a pharmaceutical company are remotely comparable to be honest, and P-hacking is different from outright fraud anyway, there's a different between accusing an experimenter of unconscious mistakes and setting up an experiment to gain a false positive, in order to generate revenue.
This isn't about having 'darlings' - just about not making accusations without substance or evidence to back them up.
You're sort of changing what I'm saying to make it sound more unreasonable - not accusing somebody of fraud doesn't make us a 'church group'. This is just basic levels of decorum - your slippery slope argument doesn't work for me I'm afraid. All I'm saying is don't accuse people of fraud without evidence - nothing scary or silencing about that, just a completely reasonable request.
I think I'm about done commenting in this thread. People make up companies and people are pretty much the same everywhere.
You said:
And there's nothing wrong with common courtesy either. Also just because Radin gets tougher treatment elsewhere doesn't mean we should do that kind of thing too.
That implies that manners should be enforced. Manners are specific patterns of behavior. Application of specific manners of behavior was what crushed skeptiko. I'm opposed to that on the principle that it stifles real interaction and communication.
I'm not convinced Max_B "accused Radin of fraud without evidence."
(2017-09-08, 04:48 PM)chuck Wrote: [ -> ]I think I'm about done commenting in this thread. People make up companies and people are pretty much the same everywhere.
You said:
And there's nothing wrong with common courtesy either. Also just because Radin gets tougher treatment elsewhere doesn't mean we should do that kind of thing too.
That implies that manners should be enforced. Manners are specific patterns of behavior. Application of specific manners of behavior was what crushed skeptiko. I'm opposed to that on the principle that it stifles real interaction and communication.
I'm not convinced Max_B "accused Radin of fraud without evidence."
Where does that imply 'manners should be enforced'? And Skeptiko was crushed by Alex and by the alt-right conspiracy theory direction it took.
Then we disagree - I think we've reached an impasse but thanks for the heated but polite debate!
(2017-09-08, 04:21 PM)Roberta Wrote: [ -> ]All I'm saying is don't accuse people of fraud without evidence - nothing scary or silencing about that, just a completely reasonable request.
The trouble is it's rarely going to be as clear-cut as that.
For example, going back to the example of the SRI experiments on Uri Geller, he wasn't actually caught cheating, so it can't be proved that he did so. But suppose someone said "There are various suspicious facts, such as that he cheated on other occasions, and that he couldn't get the same results when the conditions were changed, and on balance I think he cheated."
Or you could have a proponent challenging a sceptic to explain how some experimental result could have been obtained if psi didn't exist, and the sceptic might want to say "Well, there is always the possibility of fraud".
Should people be allowed to say things like that?
(2017-09-08, 04:56 PM)Roberta Wrote: [ -> ]Where does that imply 'manners should be enforced'? And Skeptiko was crushed by Alex and by the alt-right conspiracy theory direction it took.
Then we disagree - I think we've reached an impasse but thanks for the heated but polite debate!
Skeptiko's moderation, starting with Andy/Alex and continuing through David/Andy/Alex crushed Skeptiko. It was a long slow death that started long before the word alt-right ever appeared in the main stream press.
(2017-09-08, 04:48 PM)chuck Wrote: [ -> ]I think I'm about done commenting in this thread. People make up companies and people are pretty much the same everywhere.
You said:
And there's nothing wrong with common courtesy either. Also just because Radin gets tougher treatment elsewhere doesn't mean we should do that kind of thing too.
That implies that manners should be enforced. Manners are specific patterns of behavior. Application of specific manners of behavior was what crushed skeptiko. I'm opposed to that on the principle that it stifles real interaction and communication.
I'm not convinced Max_B "accused Radin of fraud without evidence."
Forgive me if I'm confusing your intentions but you seem to be welcoming the heated back-and-forth model sans moderation yet when you you don't like what's being said you say you're done with this thread. That is exactly what I do when things get heated too - because getting emotional and aggressive leads to things being said that probably shouldn't. I don't want this forum to degenerate into a schoolyard so I support a moderation model where the admin can say "let's cool it a little guys". No need for bans most of the time, just turn the heat down a little.
(2017-09-08, 10:01 PM)Kamarling Wrote: [ -> ]Forgive me if I'm confusing your intentions but you seem to be welcoming the heated back-and-forth model sans moderation yet when you you don't like what's being said you say you're done with this thread. That is exactly what I do when things get heated too - because getting emotional and aggressive leads to things being said that probably shouldn't. I don't want this forum to degenerate into a schoolyard so I support a moderation model where the admin can say "let's cool it a little guys". No need for bans most of the time, just turn the heat down a little.
I wasn't done because it was getting heated. I just thought it was kind of played out. Roberta and I had both said basically all that could be set about our positions. I think heated discussions are some of the best, although not always the most well articulated.
But I get what you are saying. Although I'm not sure it's ever the part of moderation to request people to tone it down. But maybe. Who knows.
I'm just reading the very bottom of this thread, haven't read the whole thing yet - I'll try to do so in the coming days. My own personal opinion is we should not be enforcing manners, and yes I'm not even sure either (like chuck) that moderation's job includes asking people to tone it down*. I'm an advocate for as much free expression as possible - I'm willing to compromise if we settle on certain very specific issues like precise types of very egregious defamation - but even then I want to be careful.
(*This is going outside the frame of this conversation, but regarding a "tone it down" type comment from moderators, I would only want that if it was already specified what types of behaviors are undesirable (e.g. excessive swearing), not just allow moderators to say "tone it down" when a conversation gets heated, for example. And perhaps even where such a comment would be legitimate, something both more precise and friendlier could be said than "tone it down".)
(2017-09-08, 05:08 PM)chuck Wrote: [ -> ]Skeptiko's moderation, starting with Andy/Alex and continuing through David/Andy/Alex crushed Skeptiko. It was a long slow death that started long before the word alt-right ever appeared in the main stream press.
The number 1 architect of the demise of Skeptiko (for me at least) was David Bailey. And he still does not seem to get it, no real apology, no change in his stance. If he is sincere then it's just a shame but if you put yourself in that position you have to take the flak. We all know that someone has to do it and no one's perfect (I'm certainly not) but no one forced him to do it. He's just not the right kind of personality for the job and should go back to posting as a member (IMHO) that is.
I will never comment again on the Skeptiko forum, whether this forum (which is a breath of fresh air) thrives or not. And I don't have any delusions that that is any great loss (for Skeptiko) either.
This is a good issue to discuss. I am very much in agreement with what Ninshub wrote.
I see that the issue of defaming forum members was touched upon slightly. I just wanted to put in my two cents.
There continues to be multiple, defamatory, false statements made about me, but I expect to sorta take care of myself on this. And I don't think moderators should be expected to police this or be placed in a position where they have to act as judge. But I also don't want to diminish the extent to which it can become oppressive and cruel, or the extent to which reasonable (even if heated) discussions become side-tracked by personal attacks. So I don't want to necessarily speak for others who are subject to defamatory posts.
Maybe the litmus test could be that it's up to the individual to complain to a moderator if personal attacks are having a negative effect.
Linda