(2023-03-12, 05:33 PM)nbtruthman Wrote: [ -> ]It is amazing that the editors of this journal would have allowed such a conclusion to be published, in the face of the strong prevailing materialist paradigm. A clue to this would probably be that this journal is apparently an obscure Eastern European publication evidently not a part of the rigid materialist groupthink afflicting the mainline American and UK journals.
I agree, nbtruthman ! It's changing though, slowly. I actually wouldn't want doctors to start interfering too much in these experiences. They really don't need to know all the details (IMHO) anything more than that the patient is not to be treated with anti-psychotic drugs etc.
They've had a real (in the correct sense of the word) experience, and there's more to the human being than the sum of it's parts. In other words, we are absolutely not just biological robots.
(2023-03-13, 03:42 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]This is a very interesting and satisfying read (from a proponents point of view that is) that I would say reinforces the evidence that near death experiences convince those that have them that there is defintely something else beyond physical existence.
I suspect that everyone here is at some level open to the possibility that their life will continue after death - otherwise why come to this site? For example, I don't go to the flat earth society, except once out of curiosity.
David
(2023-03-13, 04:47 PM)David001 Wrote: [ -> ]I suspect that everyone here is at some level open to the possibility that their life will continue after death
You've never "met" Paul and Malf then David ? Or Sbu, for example?
(2023-03-13, 04:47 PM)David001 Wrote: [ -> ]otherwise why come to this site?
Because it's irresistible to see foolish believers deluding themselves, I would have thought.
(2023-03-13, 03:42 PM)tim Wrote: [ -> ]This is a very interesting and satisfying read (from a proponents point of view that is) that I would say reinforces the evidence that near death experiences convince those that have them that there is defintely something else beyond physical existence. Sceptics would probably be better to give it a miss, as on reading the cases studies you may find them challenging to your worldview and you wouldn't want that, I'm sure.
Near-death experiences and the change of worldview in survivors of sudden cardiac arrest: A phenomenological and hermeneutical study by Hans Zingmark and Anetth Granberg-Axèll (on a small sample of survivors of sudden cardiac arrest in Sweden)
This study began out of curiosity after the first author met a patient who spontaneously talked about her experience of a tunnel of light following a sudden cardiac arrest (SCA). She described the light as peaceful and loving, and said that she felt very welcome and had neither anxiety nor fear. The experience changed her view of life and death. She became convinced that life continued after death and said she had no more anxiety around death or dying, illustrating the potential for fundamental changes in a person’s perspective following a near-death experience (NDE)
As practicing physicians, we wanted to know more about what NDA patients think about their experiences to better communicate with them and to share our understanding with other healthcare providers.We therefore approach this article from a phenomenological perspective, meaning that we suspend our preconceptions regarding what patients experience in the minutes of unconsciousness during NDEs. Temporarily putting aside our perspectives rooted in medical science, we give full attention to what patients tell us so that we can better understand what they believe about their experiences, trying to see circumstances from their points of view.
The interviews were analyzed with phenomenological hermeneutical method for their lived experiences and the meaning for the view of life and death. Four participants were interviewed 10 weeks after their NDE. Four themes emerged: being on the other side, in another dimension; not dreaming, this is a real experience; being in a non-physical condition without my body; and comparing views of life and death before and after the NDEs.
The participants described the NDEs as an experience of another realm as non-physical in nature and existing beyond space and time. This study shows that this experience of another state of being, through the lived ex-periences of NDEs, gave the participants an entirely new mean-ing on life and death. To them, death was no longer viewed as an end but a passage into something else and that life continues after death. This realization instantly changed their worldview
The research period was from August 2016 to August 2017. We included SCA patients via initial convenience sampling in an emergency ward of a Swedish hospital. All participants had a confirmed SCA, and they were resus-citated through the use of defibrillators. Defibrillators have a built-in electrocardiogram function that monitors the electrical activity of the heart and is programmed only to function (giving electrical shocks) when there is ven-tricular fibrillation, i.e. electrical disorder and no cardiac contractions (SCA). In that sense, all participants have been declared clinically dead (NB sceptics Aware 1 the case of Mr A)
Sven experienced an NDE lasting approximately five minutes dur-ing an SCA at his work, and he was resuscitated by his colleagues. He experienced a light that he described as very strong, full of life, and without any evil at all. His impression was that he was standing at the beginning of something, as if on a threshold, as he watched a light all around and in front of him. To him, the experience was also very clear, and he felt calm and without fear. In the distance, he also heard the voices of his colleagues who were resusci-tating him. He felt an enormous resistance against returning to his body. His impression was that his consciousness had experienced another realm, completely different from the current physical world. He said that he did not have many thoughts or firm beliefs about the continuation of life before his NDE experience.
John was the oldest participant at 88 years of age. He had a vivid sense of traveling towards something that he described as "the other side" where the atmosphere was peaceful and very welcoming. He loved the atmosphere, and he cried deeply when he described how it was there. He was also aware of his own body and had a strong feeling of wanting the people who were helping him to stop their resuscitation attempt. He did not want to go back to what he described as “life” again. He wanted to go on.
"Yes, I was on the way to death, yes, in that direction. I say that I was going to leave the earthly [realm] and move into all. I was sure of that, yes, the spiritual world. Sure...because I was going toward something. I was not somehow...dead"
Anders, Bertil, Sven, and John all described their expe-riences during the SCAs as being on route to another place, a kind of alternate reality that they had never experienced before. They described it as a liminal state existing in between the physical world and the world coming after. As Anders said, “I was on the other side and had this experience....” Bertil similarly described the experience in spatial terms, but also as “knowledge”: “Yes, yes clearly, but it is an experience of a completely different realm"
"Then, I did not really understand where I was because there were two different worlds. The tunnel I found myself in was more real than the world I came back to. I went from one world [and] back to the normal world again."
"Because I was pretty badly battered when my body laid on the floor, but I had no sense of that with me in that condition. That feeling I am in great danger here...and somehow it is like that. That strikes me actually now.... I should actually, if that feeling.... If that comprehension should be linked to my body, then I should have felt that I have had pain there. Terrible pain because they were pumping quite hard on me. But, on the contrary. I was completely peaceful; it felt totally calming for me."
"My physical body was in the ambulance, all the time. Yes, in one way or another, my consciousness had left the body when I moved into that tunnel.... But, it was still me who was in that tunnel, and it was me who visualized and saw in the tunnel, but my body was left there [in the ambulance]. Mmm, so for me, in that, in what I experienced then, there was not any end...but, if I had continued another few minutes, then I would have seen the end of the tunnel."
This has totally changed my view of what death is. Sure, one maybe has used words like, “if there is any life after death,” without knowing the deeper meaning behind it.... I have lived my whole life thinking that death is something frightening and was the end of life. Then everything ceases to exist, but now, I see it differently. It [life] does not [cease to exist].
"Yes, this experience has changed my view about life, and I can say right away that I am not afraid of death any more, as I was before. Yes, of course there is something there. It must be because how else could it have turned out like this.... But what is it then?"
"This is knowledge. I know this exists...but I was only briefly there, and I cannot return, in my own control.... But definitely, something else exists...which is not this [the physical reality] in any way, and this has changed my view of what happens after this...."
View of Near-death experiences and the change of worldview in survivors of sudden cardiac arrest: A phenomenological and hermeneutical study (pagepressjournals.org)
Edit : "Anders, Bertil, Sven, and John all described their experiences during the SCAs as being on route to another place, a kind of alternate reality that they had never experienced before."
This accords nicely with Parnia's recent paper on the classification of NDE's, at least in regard to the "there" and "back" that is reported.
Pretty darn awesome study. Ice certainly feels like its melting a bit!
(2023-03-13, 07:44 PM)Silence Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty darn awesome study. Ice certainly feels like its melting a bit!
Certainly does, Silence, I agree.
(2023-03-12, 03:38 PM)Ninshub Wrote: [ -> ]Nice find tim!
It's surprising to me to get such an open-minded article in a psychiatric journal.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...rics_Shock
The article originates from an institution with a long title but ending with,
"School of Medicine, Catholic University of Croatia, Zagreb, Croatia."
Basically the University is affiliated with the Catholic Church. That might explain in part the openness to the initial publication. Acceptance or consideration towards non-materialist phenomenon would be expected.
(2023-03-13, 07:44 PM)Silence Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty darn awesome study. Ice certainly feels like its melting a bit!
Do I detect that you too have undergone some sort of change of thinking?
David
(2023-03-15, 10:25 AM)David001 Wrote: [ -> ]Do I detect that you too have undergone some sort of change of thinking?
David
Nope. Exact same worldview on consciousness I've had from the jump.
I just think Trump is a complete fraud and I don't believe every mainstream view is a conspiracy. That's likely what you've conflated.
(2023-03-14, 11:33 PM)Typoz Wrote: [ -> ]The article originates from an institution with a long title but ending with,
"School of Medicine, Catholic University of Croatia, Zagreb, Croatia."
Basically the University is affiliated with the Catholic Church. That might explain in part the openness to the initial publication. Acceptance or consideration towards non-materialist phenomenon would be expected.
You know I really don't think so, Typoz but I might be wrong of course. The Catholic church has no interest in NDE's (not on their radar) as far as I know, but it is true that some clergy are aware of them.